Walk The Talk this week features an exclusive chat with the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America, Ashton Carter, who has assisted 11 Secretaries of Defense so far and was also a professor of Science and International Affairs at Harvard University. He says that war on terrorism is the biggest security threat to the world and India is a key player in combating misguided and extremely motivated groups of youth who take to terrorism. He says that ISIL is only a rebranded Al-Qaeda and its rise has surprised several governments and agencies. He also quotes that the US opposes the Lashkar-e-Taiba in totality and that Pakistan has to do a lot more to combat "the snakes in its backyard". The reclamation being done by China in the South China Sea is worrying he says and that the US wants to discuss with all countries that are claimants to various sea lanes in the sea and that his visit to the Headquarters of Indian Navy's Eastern Naval Command is a reflection on India's maritime prowess its Act East policy.
Following is the full transcript of the show:
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk The Talk, I'm Shekhar Gupta, not exactly in Delhi's corridors of power but in the corridors of Delhi's Imperial Hotel for a moment made very powerful by my guest this week, Secretary of Defense from the US, Ashton Carter, welcome to Walk The Talk.
Ashton Carter: Thank you Shekhar, pleasure to be here.
Shekhar Gupta: Dr Ashton Carter.
Ashton Carter: Thank you, thank you, my stepmother used to say he's not a real doctor, its Physics.
Shekhar Gupta: Well, so you're a real doctor with a doctorate. In fact the reason I kept this introduction so short was because I didn't quite know how to introduce you, as a pragmatist; as an intellectual; as a consistent watcher of American security interests now for a very long time; somebody who has served under 11 secretaries and who every party seems to love in America, which is very unusual and which is sort of surprising or as a pragmatic, non-ideological Secretary of Defense who everybody loves.
Ashton Carter: I would say something a little bit different which is I'm somebody who really deeply cares about security affairs and the fact that without security people don't get to raise their children in peace, live their lives, dream their dreams. And that's just not true for Americans but it's for people all over the world and I'm committed to that and I've given a lot of my life to that, so it's that commitment I think which is central to me.
Shekhar Gupta: So as US Secretary of Defense do you see yourself as being responsible for America's defence and America's strategic interests or for the whole world's security and stability?
Ashton Carter: Well, the United States, because of its history, its size, its power plays a global role and it's not just us. In particular we've friends and allies around the world and from India as well, but there's something else which is not about the United States, which is in today's world we're all connected and so everybody needs to be a global actor, in one sense or another, in order to keep the peace and make it a better world for one another.
Shekhar Gupta: If I read the literature coming out of the US right now, this is a big sort of, hot debate subject in America. Also as the country goes for fresh elections what kind of foreign policy does America need? And one of the new formulations seems to be that America should not be exporting American values it should just be protecting American interests, so it becomes a bit inward looking?
Ashton Carter: Well, I think the United States has a long tradition of recognizing that its interests in long terms can't be entirely separated from the values it's promoting. And we've always seen the two as related and I say we meaning, we do go into electoral seasons, people debate in electoral seasons, but there's a lot of American foreign and defence policy that continues over decades. One example of that is the US-India relationship. In defence, which I'm Defense Secretary it tends more than any other part of American life to be bipartisan in the long run, and so it's not as afflicted as other parts of policy are. Of course there are arguments, of course there are debates and so on. But there's also remarkable continuity over decades, I've been doing this for decades and decades for Secretaries of Defense and Presidents of both parties and not in everything, but in many, many areas there's been tremendous continuity.
Shekhar Gupta: I think you're the very personification of continuity because you've now worked with 11 Secretaries of Defense, it's something to put on your CV. In fact it looks so significant I thought I will check with you before believing the Internet on this.
Ashton Carter: That is true, that is true and now I work for myself so that's 12.
Shekhar Gupta: But how does that square with the belief, which I don't think is wrong, that post 9/11, Pentagon is the most ideological part of US government? That the whole world is divided into black and white or red and green, howsoever you want to colour code them, enemies, friends?
Ashton Carter: I don't observe that in the Department of Defense. We deal with the fact everyday around the world that the world isn't black and white and it's very complex and mixed. We deal with that complexity every day. That's one of the things you learn when you're globally engaged as the United States is, that things are rarely simple, black and white. Now there are things that are just plain that have to be combatted and they're evil. ISIL, weapons of mass destruction in the hands of terrorists, cyberattacks being used to bring down infrastructure or affect innocent people, terrorism because its target is the innocent, those things are black and white, right and wrong, good and bad. But countries, peoples, regions very rarely divide up so neatly.
Shekhar Gupta: So the old line, President Bush's line, "You're either with us or against us".
Ashton Carter: Well, President Bush was talking in the wake of the 9/11 attacks about Al Qaeda and that is a reflection of what I was saying, that terrorism really is wrong and he was saying that everybody should be against the kind of act that we suffered in New York. But it's not like we're the only country that has suffered attacks, India is has suffered such attacks, the spectacular Mumbai attacks and that in black and white, was black.
Shekhar Gupta: That was black. So talking about 9/11, four years before 9/11 you wrote a paper I think, with the then CIA Chief on catastrophic terrorism. Was 9/11 catastrophic enough or do you think you were imagining worse?
Ashton Carter: My co-author and I have a joke, which is that our paper was the most far-sighted paper ever to be totally ignored. And what I mean by that is that we were the only people writing it, about the prospect of terrorism, but we were concerned about it through the 1990s as we watched for example Al-Qaeda grow, but we were also worried about the fact that more and more destructive power, it's a fact of technology and social change, more and more destructive power is falling in the hands of smaller and smaller groups. That's an objective fact and we were talking about that also.
Shekhar Gupta: So what is it that you said in 1997 that was ignored and that if it wasn't ignored, may be it would've saved some lives and trouble?
Ashton Carter: I think that there was simply not the consciousness, at least in the United States before 9/11, of how dangerous terrorism is, how it challenges society, because it requires all the different parts of society to work together, police force...
Shekhar Gupta: ...also divides the society in a way, good guys-bad guys, suspicion, profiling
Ashton Carter: Well, yes that's something that has to be combated, that people stay on the same side, which is we're all against the terrorists and so that's another challenge. But it's a challenge to governance, it's a challenge to getting all the instruments of national power together and this is a global phenomenon, so it is a challenge for international relations.
Shekhar Gupta: Let me ask you a trick question, One question, my professor Steve Cohen, who's now at Brookings, he tells me the problem in Washington is that nobody reads anything that not marked 'classified', so was your paper 'classified' or not?
Ashton Carter: It was not, but obviously my co-author who had been the CIA Director and I had been the Assistant Secretary of Defense, had been in the government and had access to classified information. We didn't need to use that in writing this paper because the facts were plain for all to see. If only they'd analysed them, namely that the destructive power, once reserved to large nation states and organised groups of humanity, were falling into the hands of less smaller, less organised groups, even individuals.
Shekhar Gupta: And that power has gotten worse since then and the prospects of that power falling into the hands of bad guys has gotten worse or better?
Ashton Carter: No, it gets worse with the progress of technology because more and more power is in the hands of all of us, we know that because we all have an iPhone or some other kind of phone which is a potential cyber vehicle. We all travel freely, much more freely than was the case in the past and so society, if it's going to stay safe and protect people, needs to adapt in a way that it protects people's privacy, people's freedom, while at the same time making it effective. This is the problem of the few against the many and the many need to stick to together against the few.
Shekhar Gupta: Because the few will usually stick together.
Ashton Carter: The few sometimes bond together. You see that in the case of ISIL. There people who are simple dissatisfied with their lives, looking for adventure, any number of motivations, as well as the original motivation of creating an Islamic state come together behind this movement and it's made of people with lots of different motivations.
Shekhar Gupta: But this is truly an odd situation where Hezbollah looks like they're less worse than ISIL, so it's difficult to see which side are you on?
Ashton Carter: Well I think when it comes to terrorism and this is very important, we all have to be against terrorism in all its forms. Terrorism is using violence against the innocent for a purpose that is not about them and taking it out on them. That is an evil thing to do, whatever the excuse, whatever the motivation, whatever the group doing it.
Shekhar Gupta: So you mentioned ISIL and some other manifestations, but you didn't mention Al-Qaeda. You think the threat is more or less diminished now?
Ashton Carter: Well Al-Qaeda we have been combating since 9/11, but Al-Qaeda still exists and we're continuing to combat that at the same time we combat ISIL. For example, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is a particular stand of Al Qaeda, which has long been intent on attacking the US homeland, which is something we take particularly seriously.
Shekhar Gupta: Right. But do you see ISIL cannibalising Al-Qaeda, as they seem to be doing with Boko-Haram now?
Ashton Carter: Yes, there is a phenomenon in which some of the long standing terrorist groups, some branches of Al-Qaeda are re-branding themselves as ISIL, because they're looking to get more publicity, they're looking to recruite, to raise funds, to motivate their recruits and their adherence. And I think the ISIL movement adds certain dynamism to their organization. So they're re-branding, you do see that around the world.
Shekhar Gupta: If I may use that expression 'a kind of sex appeal', because ISIL has got territory now.
Ashton Carter: It has an attractive appeal to both established terrorists and as we were noting earlier, to people who're just sitting at a keyboard at home, a young person fantasising about having a different life, a life that is more meaningful than the one they feel they're living. So there's a very wide variety of motivations all feeding into this evil channel.
Shekhar Gupta: You know Secretary, since we started this de-hyphenation business, we are very conscious not to try and mention Pakistan in any conversation with an important American. But it's very tough for me, as an Indian journalist, to have come this far talking about Al-Qaeda, ISIL, etc. etc., and not talk about Lashkar-e-Taiba. Because we have seen many promises from the Pakistani side and definitely from the American side that all terrorists are the same. But people like me, who are by no means hawks, also believe that Pakistan even now, post-Peshawar, has one view on terrorists in the backyard or snakes in the backyard, who may bite them as well, and a different one for snakes in the front yard, who they think are under their control.
Ashton Carter: Let me start with where you started, which is we don't hyphenate. United States stopped doing that a long time ago out of recognition of the fact that India and Pakistan, while they have a history and a relationship that is frequently very testy, are independent countries forging their own strategic destinies. We want to have independent relations with the two of them, and Sir we still stay de-hyphenated. That said, to get your question about L-e-T, this gets back to what I said earlier, we need to oppose terrorism in all its forms, whatever excuses being given, whatever motivation its propagators have. The United States does oppose L-e-T.
Shekhar Gupta: And have the Pakistani's done enough? Because there's a lot of consternation in India about these L-e-T people getting out of jail, cases not being brought in, Pakistan's not committing terrorists to military courts by not L-e-T people. America has a bounty on the head of L-e-T, who roams around addressing meetings along with Pakistan's ministers. It just doesn't fall in place.
Ashton Carter: We're constantly encouraging Pakistan to do more, and generally speaking Pakistan has been doing more. And I think it is beginning to dawn on at least some in Pakistan, that the dangers to Pakistan itself of sponsoring or being involved or not being aggressive enough in countering terrorism is greater than any other potential motivation for them. And with respect to the particular example you cite, I think the United States and our State Department and our Embassy here, not so much my responsibility to do this, but I think Secretary Kerry and our Embassy here has been very clear about our concern about the judicial process with respect to L-e-T.
Shekhar Gupta: Secretary you said 'some' in Pakistan. Are there a sufficient number of people who matter in Pakistan in your assessment? Because you know Pakistan's military's mind much better than we do in India. Who now sees the futility in finessing their view of snakes in the front yard as against snakes in the backyard? Are there enough people?
Ashton Carter: I think it is my impression that the view I was explaining, which is one of coming to recognise terrorism as a boomerang that comes back on the State, is becoming more widespread. Now, is any country, including Pakistan, doing everything that we would like to see against terrorism? No, we would like to see more, but they are doing more than they were and we're trying to encourage them in that direction.
Shekhar Gupta: To do more. Now back to ISIL, did ISIL, did the rise of ISIL take you by surprise?
Ashton Carter: I think that the rise of ISIL as a social media phenomenon was something that very few foresaw or appreciated. Al-Qaeda was the first Internet terrorist group; ISIL is the first social media.
Shekhar Gupta: This army was raised on social media
Ashton Carter: Yes, it's an extraordinary phenomena that could not have occurred before the widespread use of social media.
Shekhar Gupta: And does that call for some rethink on what to do with social media?
Ashton Carter: Well, I think that we have to recognize that social media can be used and it's a great thing in general. It's good, it connects people, it's a wonderful tool, but like any human tool it can be misused and so we as society need to make sure...
Shekhar Gupta: ...Your President loves it.
Ashton Carter: I think everybody loves it. I have to say I had my hundredth day as Secretary of Defense of the United States a few days ago and launched my own Facebook page to commemorate that. So the Secretary of Defense has tried it out too.
Shekhar Gupta: You will have many young followers and likes very soon.
Ashton Carter: Especially the troops. It's a great way of connecting with the Force and of course that's what I wake up for every morning, as our people, as our uniforms.
Shekhar Gupta: So, who fights ISIL? Your views on the Iraqi Army have made some news. You said Iraqi Army doesn't have the will to fight. A couple of my columnist friends who we all respect have said, they have the will to fight, but not for Iraq, which means the nation building in Iraq, the new government, the new nationalism etc have a problem. Where do you think the problem is?
Ashton Carter: I think the important point about combating ISIL in Iraq is, that in order for ISIL to stay defeated, once it's defeated, that is in order to have a lasting effect the people of Iraq need to own the fight. We on the outside can and will help in the coalition of many countries, including the United States, in assisting, but it has to begin with a particular ground force and an ability to sustain victory on the ground. And that's what is difficult in a multi-sectarian state that has had so much violence like Iraq.
Shekhar Gupta: Secretary, to use a term I know that you are too cautious to use so you are not using it, I am using it, the entire ISIL are now a dog's breakfast, because you know in Iraq you're on one side, in Syria nobody knows which side to be on. Turks have their own view, so ISIL's got this dog's breakfast to play with.
Ashton Carter: It is a, you're getting to a fundamental point, which is that phenomena like ISIL can only breed in fundamentally ungoverned spaces, where the people do not have a stable society. ISIL is not a stable society
Shekhar Gupta: Oh absolutely not.
Ashton Carter: It isn't going to take care of the welfare of people who live there and can't substitute for a stable government, but it thrives in places where that kind of stable government doesn't exist. Now obviously it is challenging in the case of Iraq, because it is multi-sectarian, it's had such a history of violence and that said, that's a challenge before us. But it's the challenge that we must surmount in order to have lasting defeat of ISIL.
Shekhar Gupta: Where do you see India featuring in this new balance because you look at the whole world every morning? You are a teacher, you have taught at Harvard and I will not ask you, we do not have enough time for me to take you back to Medieval History, which is also one of your first loves along with Nuclear Physics, but when you wake up in the morning how does the state of the world look to you strategically? Describe it for me, give us the master's view.
Ashton Carter: Well strategy for all of us, because as I said earlier we're all global powers in today's world, requires you to have a sense of perspective, in which you're able to deal with a wide variety of very different security challenges. So for example, we've been discussing ISIL.
Shekhar Gupta: Russia and Ukraine, there is China.
Ashton Carter: Well, Russia's behaviour in Ukraine is a throwback to an era in which countries would just invade their neighbours, that's why we so strongly oppose it. China is a very different circumstance and I've been speaking about that over the last few weeks. Our approach to China is, we're happy to, we want China, like Japan did, India is and other countries at the Asia Pacific and Indian Ocean area to rise and prosper peacefully. That's the principle the United States...
Shekhar Gupta: But what about these air safety zones and you know all this airspace complication that's now taking place around China, South China Sea?
Ashton Carter: Yes, what has gotten attention in over the last year or so in the South China Sea is the pace and scale of Chinese reclamation.
Shekhar Gupta: Discovery of new islands, where none existed.
Ashton Carter: The land reclamation in disputed territory. This is, and using that to challenge freedom of navigation and I've made two points in that regard for the United States, and the first is the United States intends to continue to fly and sail and operate in the South China Sea, we're not a claimant. We are not a disputant to this.
Shekhar Gupta: But you will not be blocked.
Ashton Carter: But we will not change our behaviour. Secondly, we want everybody to stop, because it's important to know that it's not just China, other countries, not in the same scale, have...
Shekhar Gupta: ...Because you are creating cartography.
Ashton Carter: Exactly and so we're calling for all of the claimants to halt reclamation and halt further militarisation and get back to talking about this circumstance and not trying to change.
Shekhar Gupta: Because when President Clinton came to the subcontinent for the first time, he said maps of the subcontinent can no longer be redrawn in blood and now we see the map of the world being redrawn with sand and soil brought from elsewhere?
Ashton Carter: It is causing tension that is out of proportion to any possible benefit anybody can get out of it.
Shekhar Gupta: And India has reasons to worry also?
Ashton Carter: Well, India, like the United States, India depends heavily on maritime transit for its trade, for its security and obviously this issue isn't in your immediately neighbouring seas, but India's a maritime power and does transit and depend on trade through South China Sea.
Shekhar Gupta: So do we draw any links between your starting this visit from Vizag, home of our Eastern Headquarters, Eastern Naval Command?
Ashton Carter: Yes, well, yes, in the sense that it signifies the importance of maritime security to both United States and India. It is a reflection in the maritime area of both India's 'Act East' policy and United States' rebalance to Asia Pacific and Indian Ocean areas. They meet up at sea.
Shekhar Gupta: So we're not over reading this, there's significance in you beginning the trip from Vizag?
Ashton Carter: Yes there is and that is the determination of both our countries to increase our level of cooperation in the maritime area. And by the way, not just the two of us, we do things multi-laterally as well, we've an exercise in which India, United States and other countries, Malabar for example....
Shekhar Gupta: Secretary we can talk for a long time and I still see that a bit of the corridor is left, but I know that your staff wants you for more important meetings than talking to journalists. Just before you go away, President Obama said, in fact in a written interview with me on his visit here, that India and the US stars are aligned. Now from where you sit in the Pentagon, are those stars also aligned militarily?
Ashton Carter: They are aligned strategically and broadly speaking in the defence, including the military area. Let me give you some examples. As we were noting just a moment ago we're both maritime powers, maritime security is incredibly important to both of us. We're both space powers, security in space; we're both information technology powers, cyber is important to all of us. We're both afflicted and threatened by terrorists, counter-terrorism is important to both of us. So these are areas in which we have interests that strongly align. And of course in terms of the kinds of the peoples and country, we are strongly alike democracies, believing in rule of law.
Shekhar Gupta: Sometimes the broken Parliamentary system.
Ashton Carter: Yes, and all the problems that go with democracy, entrepreneurial cultures, there's many, many things in common including, very importantly, a fundamentally peaceful strategic perspective. We've long been that way both of us and we both have peaceful trajectories going forward and that brings us together.
Shekhar Gupta: So I hope as we go ahead we can safely make a presumption that we'll see a lot more happening on the defence side as well between the two countries?
Ashton Carter: You will, the word I always use is 'destiny'. I think India and the United States are destined to be strategic partners. That's where we're going, we can be flexible we will be flexible. How we get there, we can work together to find our way, but I think we know where we're going.
Shekhar Gupta: And you know what, I had some conversation with you in the beginning about introducing you, one expression I did not use, I kept for the end, because you're also acknowledged in New Delhi to be India's best friend in the Obama Administration, and no better time to have you there than this, as we say, when all our stars are aligned.
Ashton Carter: Well, thank you. But let me just be clear that the best friend in the Obama Administration, of India, is President Obama himself, as signified in his meeting with Prime Minister Modi, but I am a good and long-standing friend, I'm too.
Shekhar Gupta: Secretary Carter is someone who goes from administration to administration and university to university, thank you so much.
Ashton Carter: Thank you.