New Delhi:
A week after Anna Hazare called off his fast, his close aide and former IPS officer Kiran Bedi is still making headlines. Refusing to apologise for her infamous '
ghoonghat act' at the Ramlila Ground, she has been served a breach of privilege notice. Speaking on NDTV's Your Call, Kiran Bedi answers questions on her game-changer act and the Anna Hazare revolution.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Good evening and welcome to Your Call. It's the only show where you can speak to our newsmaker of the week. Tonight, a woman who made news through out her long career, first when she became the first woman to join the Indian Police, then when she was called 'Crane Bedi', then the person who completely reformed the Tihar Jail and now, of course, someone who is the core member of Team Anna and is back in the news, as Parliament takes her on as well. Joining me tonight is Kiran Bedi. Let's just look first at the highlights of her life.
Kiran Bedi, thank you so much for joining me tonight. It's an interesting time. It's exactly one week since Anna Hazare called off his fast. It's time to look at the lessons India has learnt, but also to look forward. As someone who has been part of this whole movement, such an integral part of it, what is the biggest lesson that you actually learnt about India, and also the biggest lesson in what could have been different?
Kiran Bedi: Well, I think India was only waiting for an icon they could trust, who they could believe. India remains non-violent. India remains value-based. India wants merit. India wants inclusivity. Indian youth can come together without teasing women. Ramlila crowd had a lot of women in it. Not a case came of women being teased. This is a culture. Our culture is non-violent. Our culture is truly based on Vivekananda's morals. So, I think that was a revival. It came on the surface that we can be like this. All we needed was someone whom we could rally around, who we could trust, who could take us to destination selflessly. I think that trust got revived.
NDTV: One turning point that you mentioned was your
ghoongat act at the Ramlila Maidan. You have seen the controversy around it. I just wanted to actually see that and why it has become such a huge issue, and what you said was said in the Parliament. But let's just have a look at that.
Humour of it Kiran Bedi. Why don't you contest elections?
Kiran Bedi: I am not interested. Why can't I raise my voice as an ordinary citizen? Why must I only fight an election and speak as an MP? Why can't I speak as an ordinary citizen who makes a vote and elects my own representative? Why can't I be citizens' voice?
NDTV: No, but does it imply lack of responsibility? Their point is they are elected. They are responsible to the people. So does it imply lack of accountability for Team Anna?
Kiran Bedi: I think we truly are accountable to the people for what point we raise. I think we are equally accountable. We are equally responsible. If I am recognising the role that Mr Advani played, I am not doing it in any anticipation of any favour. If I am recognising the role what Sandeep Dikshit played in negotiations with Team, I am not expecting any favour. I am a very neutral, fair person who recognises the work wherever it comes from.
NDTV: You made that point on Mr Advani. Again there is a lot of criticism. On the whole credit seems to go, you said that this act was a game-changer. Mr Advani called you, the moment he sees all this on television. Even Arvind Kejriwal has said that it's not the BJP who has played a major role to this whole miracle of that resolution, of that we saw in the Parliament that day. Why do you go to one party and do you think Mr Advani called only because of that?
Kiran Bedi: And I'm getting a call from Mr Advani in the evening saying
Aaj wahan kya hua? I said
humko sabko aap fail kar rahe ho kiske paas jaye kaun hai sunne waala in logon ke liye kaun kidhar jaayen. So I said, Sir
aapne bhi hume fail kar diya. I didn't spare him also because I've cried out and I don't get a call from him. I realize it is from his office. LK Advani he says, umm. I said uh
toh. He says, then, he said the word I heard was,
beti kal zaroor hoga. Now I didn't take it seriously. Arvind and all were sitting and I said, Arvind, I got a call from Mr Advani saying
kal zaroor hoga. Nobody took it seriously. I saw under your NDTV because on my iPad I could only get NDTV so when I saw...
NDTV: The NDTV App?
Kiran Bedi: Yes, the app, and I could get only that and I saw Mr LK Advani with the Prime Minister. I said here are two sensible people now without any detractors meeting, this could be the game-changer for me, or the catalyst. You can give it any name then all the flexibility came from the BJP resolution
lao vote lao kuch toh lao. We are willing, we are flexible for either and I saw the game changing, now it could be game changing, it could be the catalyst. I do not know, but listen, that act if you see it in isolation you can interpret it differently, when you see it in reference to a context and against my grain, it was an outcry as an Indian citizen crying for justice.
NDTV: You've refused to say sorry but even if people's sentiments are hurt, why not just say sorry?
Kiran Bedi: Sorry for what? I've said the truth. This is the truth. Even Gandhiji in 1935 said it against the British Parliament, saying they're hypocrites, they're liars and they're cheats. And he used even stronger words when the British Parliament was not listening to the outcry of civil disobedience movements. India wanting freedom and the British Parliament just wanted to sit tight. Even Gandhiji. Go and read his Home Rule page 27 and 28, the way he said things to the British Parliament.
NDTV: But Ms Bedi, that's a comparison that would anger many, because they would say this is not British Parliament, this is an Indian Parliament, elected by Indian people. Can you compare the two things?
Kiran Bedi: Absolutely, because that time we were under the British Parliament and it is only the British Parliament which finally...
NDTV: But Indians didn't vote for them, Indians didn't vote for the British Parliament.
Kiran Bedi: No, but doesn't matter. They were being, they were deciding on our fate. It is the British Parliament that was deciding on our fate, which was legislating for us. It was the British Parliament, which finally gave us our Independence in 1947. So we were looking up to the British Parliament and when Gandhiji said stronger words, which I don't even wish to mention, those who want to see it go to Home Rule page 27, 28 under the title Condition of England, I'm telling you, he, Gandhiji used stronger words because that was the time to do it.
NDTV: You're not worried about the privilege motion?
Kiran Bedi: No. I've already said I'm willing to be punished as long as you want. Because for speaking the truth to be punished, I think, it's just, it's your
dharm. I'm telling you truth is very, very bitter and that is where it hurt. Now whether it became a catalyst for change or not I do not know, but I can tell you that was totally a divine cry a cry for divine help, because Anna's 11th day means if it had not changed, 12th day we would have been all out. We would have been out of the ground, imagine the kind of violence this would have spread around the country, same movement would have been condemned, today which has been applauded.
NDTV: Right, let me just go across, Kiran Bedi, to so many people who want to ask you questions. Let's go across first to Mumbai where we have some young people to ask you questions.
Girl Questioner: And my question to you is regarding your role in the Jan Lokpal Bill, you were termed as the weakest link throughout. How would you want to explain that?
Kiran Bedi: So be it.
NDTV: Did the criticism hurt? The ones who said you were doing this for personal publicity, the ones who said that, as the point I just made, that Anna Hazare would have called off his fast much earlier, even Swami Agnivesh, that CD that shows him saying this on the phone. He's come and stood in our television studios and said that, you know that if Kiran Bedi and Arvind Kejriwal weren't there, the fast would have been over by now.
Kiran Bedi: If you go by Mr Agnivesh, I think then you better let it be. If you're going by Mr Agnivesh's words, the let it be, because I think that he's the, he, enough...
NDTV: Why is that?
Kiran Bedi: He has to now establish his credibility in view of what has got exposed. He was a direct link between he and Mr Sibal. That means he was almost like a mole in the whole group, and there were allegations all along, but we kept trusting him. Now I think he has to come out clean. When he asked me, what should I do? I said go to the Police. Lodge an FIR against what that you were a part of, you were a link between. Because he's been caught on the camera talking to Mr Sibal, to say,
aap inko dei jaa rahe ho bahut ho gaye ab toh inko tod deni chahiyee thee.I don't know why, what, with what conscience he was being with us. I think he if you're going by him, then I think let's drop it.
NDTV: Well we saw a very different avtaar of you also at Ramlila and India Gate, so let's just look at some pictures of that.
You're there in a very different avtaar, waving the flag, singing songs. Again your critics will say this is all for the camera, this is all part of whipping up a frenzy?
Kiran Bedi: That's the other side of me, that's the other side of me. If I'm in uniform I perform according to uniform. When I'm not in uniform, I go by the situation. It's situational and I think a normal human being ought to remain situational and I'm normal, I'm not abnormal.
NDTV: Right, well I'm going to go across to some more questions. Let's just go across to Delhi where we have some more questions for you.
Boy Questioner: And my question is about the methodology adopted by Mr Anna Hazare. Let us say another day some new social activist comes up with a new kind of bill, and demands the same kind of demands from the government, and in the same way Anna Hazare did. So will it be possible for the government to accept each and every bill in that very fashion?
Kiran Bedi: It was truly an unavoidable situation. Anna didn't reach the, didn't start the fasting from day one and giving no notice. I think Anna had put government on notice for many several months. I think there's a lesson for the government. If you don't want people to come on the streets non-violently, though with this kind of non-violent mass movement, start listening to them on a day-to-day basis. It's called practice day-to-day democracy and not once in five years use people to vote for you, but practice day-to-day. Do pre-legislative discussions on the bill, every bill. Don't just put it on the website. Use Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha and television debates, engage people, take the calls like this and listen to people. Like even the Sports bill if you ask me, should go on the television. There should be a date declared, that on this date, this time, join us for an open debate and let even the others who have an Opposition, people who are opposing it be on the television. This would prevent this kind of situation. I think there's a more a bigger lesson for the government, for the elected representatives to hold pre-legislative day-to-day democracy debates and use the power of the media to reach out, use the power the technology media, the IT or the television, but you see these debates happening in England.
NDTV: Right.
Kiran Bedi: You see them happening in the US. Why can't these debates happen in India? This has never happened unfortunately.
NDTV: That's an interesting point that you made, is that use it for debates. Now we know that the new thing that Anna Hazare wants to work on is electoral reforms. Already politicians seem nervous at what they can exactly say, but people have pointed to the impracticality of it. Is now the Anna Hazare team almost a new parallel system, where we have another group that is running the country in a way or coming up with laws or saying this is the way it should be done?
Kiran Bedi: Well if people do believe in Anna, now it's like
mai hoon Anna tu bhi Anna ab toh saara desh hai Anna. It's almost becoming true. All those who want a reform; want integrity, want a cause to reach, they will approach Anna. Now it is up to Anna to pick up a cause and Anna declared at the closing of his fast, saying, I will take up right to reject and right to recall and when I discussed with him the other day, I said, Anna let's pick up one cause as cause number one. And I think he may pick up right to reject as number one cause, and then follow it up with right to recall, and right to reject, would mean that you have rejected a party, because there were only two reject, one that was in governance and then you take the same party after five years, because you didn't have a choice, you forget.
NDTV: No, but Ms Bedi, I take the point. Much of what you're saying, a lot of it is in good sense. The Election Commission already has many of these proposals with it. The right to recall is much more controversial, but the precedent it sets, are we going to have a separate body, which is now looking at what should be done, which is encroaching into what is Parliament's space?
Kiran Bedi: How is it a separate body? I think it's back to voters, it's the voice of the electorate and the voice of the electorate must remain clear and loud. In fact, the voice of the electorate had absolutely been silenced. They didn't even know how to raise their voice, because the only voices of electorate were through political parties, and political parties were never rating, raising many times the right issues and in such a manner and then India, countrymen...
NDTV: But improve the system. Don't set up a parallel system...
Kiran Bedi: Listen Sonia, everybody in India doesn't belong to party A or party B. Some are non-political, majority is actually non-political and they choose their candidate only at that time. I think that momentum has come together as non-political citizens, who will raise up certain causes and which they see Anna as a symbol they can trust.
NDTV: Let's go across to questions from your state, some people from the city of Chandigarh who want to ask you questions.
Member from the audience: My name is Madhu Prakash. I want to ask Kiranji if any member of Anna's team is offered any posts, will they accept it or any political post will they accept it or not?
Member from the audience: In our society, in our country we are already overburdened with many rules. Will this institution of Jan Lokpal Bill, will it further overburden this bureaucracy, say a public grievances redressal system?
Kiran Bedi: No, I think, you see this organisation is going to give you for the first time an organised system, a system of response to white-collar crime. White-collar crime has never been actually considered a serious crime, so we have all got used to it, we reconcile to it. This system now is giving you the power of prevention, because this raised the deterrents. What's happened is that in corruption we had very high reward, but very minimal risk. But now what's going to happen is that it's going to raise the barometer of high risk and low return. This is what the Lokpal system will provide, which means prevention, which means an accessible grievances redressal system, which means you know where to go. I get many messages, I am being asked a bribe, where do I go? You have nowhere to go, then, you will have a Lokpal down the line to say, go to the Lokpal and Lokpal also is under considerable watch to remain clean, and with this kind of social auditing which we have proposed, no Lokpal could actually dare to be corrupt. But however eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. We must continue that, but today from zero system you are working on a proper national infrastructure, with states Lokayukts, as well as the Lokpals as a common and the common value. They say now I can go to they Lokpal. I think that's the biggest achievement, which you did not have, the accountable. Look, even now, today CBI is always under doubt. Then CBI's anti-corruption wing coming to the Lokpal will not be under doubt, because a Lokpal will be a multi-body, selected by, selected from the people, and I think where they will be trusted.
I think one other question saying if anyone of us is looking for government positions? Sorry, no one as far as I am concerned, nothing from the government in any form thank you, including any reward or recognition, none at all. Because whatever we have done is done out of missionary zeal, out of commitment that this was the need of the hour, and we've been speaking, we take discussions, we do speaking engagements, seminars. This is the time to act and prove that we were truly serious without any expectation, opposition or returns, but we will keep a watch that the right kind of Lokpal members are selected.
NDTV: An interesting irony on the Standing Committee will also be Lalu Yadav. Are you confident that the Lokpal Bill will go through in some way? The government has made it clear, Pranab Mukherjee has said to NDTV again that the final bill will be decided by the Parliament. Are you confident that it will take the shape that you want?
Kiran Bedi: After this also I am sure that rest of the political parties; all Opposition parties etc. will not let this happen. We do have a faith and I can't imagine government going back and returning the CBI and keeping it under its control. It will be amazing breach of trust and if we have to go back to Ramlila Maidan, if that happens, Sonia, we will have to stake ourselves back again as people of this country.
NDTV: The interesting point you made is that you don't want any government posts and you have had this distinguished career in the Police and we saw what happened to you. You were suddenly passed as Commissioner Delhi Police, then came the question of becoming the Chief Information Commissioner. The government has always made it sure that you stay away from any top post, were you disillusioned by that? Do you find it another way, a much better way then, when you had to actually deal with the government, or had to report to politicians who decided what posts you would be?
Kiran Bedi: Sonia I have seen the policing from within, I think those of us who had the courage and wanted to follow the letter and spirit of the law and were sensitive to common man's needs were constantly marginalized, because we had no Godfathers. All those, many of them, not all, many of them made it brilliantly by merit, but majority went by the tails of these people they had, either Godfathers or Godmothers. I had a God, but didn't have a Godfather. But I had Almighty on my side, that whichever post I got, I could do well in it and I could deliver it to my satisfaction, and look back on it with a sense of satisfaction. But I can tell you, yes, that's a fact, that certain posts were denied to me because that needed Kiran Bedi plus a Godfather.
NDTV: And the question I wanted to ask you was the ultimate irony of you visiting Anna Hazare in Tihar Jail, a jail, which you thankfully had made a better place than it was before. We saw the whole argument. We saw the government say, oh, we didn't know that Anna Hazare is going to Tihar Jail. The politicians said the Delhi Police would never have done it without clearance from above. As a former police officer what's the truth of it? Could the Delhi Police have done that on their own?
Kiran Bedi: No, this had to be a political decision. This could not have been Police Commissioner's decision. That's why I think he learnt his lesson quickly. Ramdev was a political decision, what they did with Ramdev, what the arrest was a political decision. I think the patience was his own decision, patience was his own decision and I think he learnt his lesson. Brijesh and I had a discussion, I told him Brijesjh this is not between Anna Hazare's movement and Delhi Police. Don't ever make a mistake, this is between Anna Hazare and we the elected, and not, let it be the not even we the elected, but we in power. I said let's be settled with Anna Hazare's movement and we in power. Don't step in, keep patience as long as we don't turn violent, we have a fundamental right for this mass non-violent movement.
NDTV: So you don't go by the Home Minister's explanations in the Parliament that I didn't know this was happening, the Delhi Police did this?
Kiran Bedi: When they go right they take the credit, when they go wrong they pass it on. It's very unfair for the Police and I am so glad that the Delhi Police showed all that maturity, sagacity and patience and in the end came out the winner.
NDTV: I mean just looking back into how you used to shoot into, how you shot into public prominence. First, of course one was that infamous when you were called the Crane Bedi, one you were known for your strict attitude on traffic violations, I think we have those shots of you. At that time if you could just play that. I mean there is a young Kiran Bedi making every traffic violator, including lifting Indira Gandhi's official car, I mean that must have been a tough decision for you to take?
Kiran Bedi: Sonia, never.
NDTV: No?
Kiran Bedi: Upholding the law is never a tough decision. It's easiest thing for the Police. The consequences maybe very uncomfortable, but following the law is the easiest thing to do for Police. Policing is easiest when you follow the law.
NDTV: Right well, Kiran, we all know you as a tough cop, we have all seen you in the headlines, but not many know the other side of you and I have someone who does and your daughter joins me online. She is of course currently in Pune and Saina, thanks so much for joining me tonight and go ahead with your question for your mother Kiran Bedi.
Kiran Bedi's daughter Saina: Hi Mama, hi Mummy.
Kiran Bedi: Hi beta.
Kiran's daughter: When this all started, this is a question-answer session, but I want to share something before I ask my mom a question. Before it started, I was very, very apprehensive, very scared obviously. I mean any daughter would be and I was, like you really want to do this, should you do this, can this be done in a silent way behind walls, all that and she only told me one thing, it's now or never and this is my national duty. It is for my country, my country has given me so much, I owe it to my country. That moment was so selfless. It was a very short simple, sweet talk between her and me. No media was hearing it nobody was hearing it. It was just between me, and my mother and she said it was my national duty. I know it hurts also when you hear it a little, when you hear negative things also on TV. I just want to go tell them, look she has been selfless in this journey, absolutely selfless and for my mother life is very simple. It's right or it's wrong. There are no in-betweens for her.
Kiran Bedi: I was getting a call every time, Mummy what is happening now? What is happening now? What are you going to do now? I tried to disconnect the call, in fact, the only person I used to be angry with was her, because she would be calling me sometimes so frequently and now I couldn't take those calls. I would say "gochu", that's her pet name, please trust in your mother. No Mama, what will you do? What will happen, there's no judgement in the Parliament? She got my wrath. I could be angry on any but this. I am proud of my child if this is the way she knows me. I am amazed she remembered because I used the word 'gochu' it's now or never. If we don't get it this time, we don't know when will we get another Anna. So I said this is now or never let me be. She was very scared. Why couldn't you be doing it differently Mama? I think she recalls the word now or never that's true.
NDTV: Again there was whole controversy that you had to leave Mizoram because of people. Why did you use a Mizoram quota when you were posted there to get admission into a college? Did that hurt when your child was used to target you? How would you answer those allegations?
Kiran Bedi: Mizoram episode was totally within rules. They were only making a political issue for nothing. The Supreme Court also struck them out. It was strictly within the rules and it was according to the written rules. They were just creating a buzz out of nothing. Only to gain political mileage and just because I stood firm they could do nothing about it.
NDTV: Well we talked to your daughter. Of course they say behind every successful man is a woman but let's just go across to the man who is very rarely seen, your husband has something to say.
Kiran Bedi: I am so glad to hear that.
Kiran's husband: Hello Kiran, we had 12 days of history in making. I am so proud you were part and are part of it. I remember when you won the Asian Lawn Tennis Championship and then you got the President's Medal for Gallantry and then you got the Magsaysay Award for 1994, but this is the best.
Kiran Bedi: You remember you used to write such lovely poetry for me and I remember the way we used to roam on the roads on our scooter. I really remember those days, long time and I see where we are. It's a great feeling today for me.
NDTV: Lovely to hear that. But tell me again, the first woman IPS, sacrifices must have meant to take on full time career, like your staying away from your husband, bringing up your daughter, sometimes just with your mother and father. When you look back do you regret anything? Do you think path blazer or trailblazer was something difficult for you?
Kiran Bedi: The way I grew up, this is the way I had to be. I grew up with a lot of tennis, getting up very early, running up miles and miles before I go to the school, then come and doing very well at studies because sports could not be a career and if I am playing sports as my daughter said it, had to be the right way, the maximum way. I am maximalist. If I pick up anything I take it to the logical end, I am truly a maximalist, that's true.
NDTV: There are huge fans of the movement, huge critics of the movement. The point is it is the movement where the thing was extraordinary in India. Thank you so much for joining us tonight and answering all the questions people asked you.
Kiran Bedi: Thank you.