New Delhi:
In an exclusive interview to NDTV's Barkha Dutt, the new Telecom Minister Kapil Sibal, who has taken over at a time when it is mired in allegations of corruption, defends the Prime Minister as "a very sensitive man", and explains why it's not necessary for the PM to address Parliament on the 2G issue.
Here's the transcript of the interview:Barkha Dutt: I don't know how to introduce you. I first thought of saying HRD, then Science and Technology, but what's really relevant in this context is Telecom.
Kapil Sibal: Yes.
Barkha Dutt: There is a perception that while no one questions the personal integrity of the Prime Minister, and interestingly not even the BJP not even the Left, this entire crisis, this entire controversy has been severely mishandled, that the Congress hasn't been able to get defense together, that the statements made in the Supreme Court have not been effective, which is why you see this really unprecedented situation with the court, that has passed observations against the Prime Minister.
Kapil Sibal: Well first of all, I think this is the culture of the media today. This is the culture of the kind of communication revolution we are having. This is a result of that. When judges say something in court, that's not a judgment.
Barkha Dutt: It is an observation. I call that an observation.
Kapil Sibal: It is in the course of eliciting information, eliciting a response. You might say something you don't believe in also but you want to elicit a response. Now that statement is taken at face value, and then on channels its run as this is what the Supreme Court says...and it creates a lot of, not just confusion, but also consternation.
Barkha Dutt: But I am sure, that the PM, and you called him a sensitive man today, you know, one knows that about him. He couldn't be happy that the Supreme Court spoke about his alleged inaction in silence.
Kapil Sibal: This is not a question about being happy or unhappy. The question is the PM.... you can't even imagine the number of things the PM has to do, and for his attention to be diverted with respect to a man who is only interested in political one upmanship...
Barkha Dutt: Subramanian Swamy you mean right?
Kapil Sibal: Whatever....one upmanship...and for him to be distracted and more important things of the nation being put aside, I think is very unfortunate for the nation. It belittles our nation that people like these can actually try to destabilise the system.
Barkha Dutt: Why do you think Subramanian Swamy is trying to destabilise the system? Irrespective of what your opinions are of him as a politician or an individual, he argues that his is completely within his legal right under the prevention of corruption act to seek sanction for prosecution because he already has the available material to prosecute A Raja.
Kapil Sibal: Wonderful. You hit the nail on the head. You used the word sanction for prosecution, but before you seek sanction for prosecution there is an investigation.
Barkha Dutt: He says he's done that investigation.
Kapil Sibal: No no. He's not CBI. Is he the CBI, or has God given him the authority to investigate on behalf of India, and to attack all the criminals in India? What's the writ? Has the court given him a writ? Look we appoint you an investigator, you can be an investigator, I can be an investigator. Look lots of Indians in this country can say, but if the law admits that, why not.
Barkha Dutt: Where? That's why you used the right expression sanctioned for prosecution. So what happens in the court of law, forget the court of law, when I have a grievance against somebody and someone has committed a criminal wrong, I either file an FIR and the police investigates. If I don't want to file an FIR and I don't want the police to investigate, then I can go to a magistrate and file a private complaint. Now that private complaint can be dealt with in two ways - the magistrate can say we'll direct the police to investigate or the magistrate will himself investigate. If the police investigates, then after the investigation is over, and the police if it chooses, says that the investigation has lead to nothing, there is no criminal culpability, we file the report. No question of sanction, but if the police decides to actually prosecute, which is the phrase you used, then before prosecution, you have to get sanctioned. There are three stages - investigation, decision to prosecute, sanction, prosecution.
Barkha Dutt: But isn't it mandated by law that the response from the sanctioning authority, which in this case, Subramanian Swami argues with the PM needed to have come in three months...
Kapil Sibal: But first you have to have an investigation.
Barkha Dutt: But the PM could have responded by saying you don't have enough basis, that's why I said he chose to be silent.
Kapil Sibal: That's why I said he is a sensitive Prime Minister, any other person. I have the complaint with me, there is one shareholding report one newspaper report, one sheet of paper with something printed o it and the Prime Minister is now supposed to give sanction to prosecute. Assuming he gets the sanction, I'll assume now Prime Minster gives him sanction, and he doesn't go to court, what happens.
Barkha Dutt: The real problem, Kapil Sibal, is not what the Prime Minister said or did not say to Subramanian Swamy, the real issue is the PM has not spoken of this issue in the Parliament.
Kapil Sibal: No, the Prime Minister, I am sorry. No, I am sorry. As far as the Prime Minister is concerned, I don't think the PM is required to respond to private citizens who have no locus under the law to seek sanction.
Barkha Dutt: Let's forget Subramanian Swamy for a second, let's put him on the side. There is a raging Telecom scam in this country. It claimed the portfolio of A Raja. You were given additional charge. That was a clear acknowledgment by the government that the CAG report was a damning one. What seems confusing is that the Congress hasn't quite made up its mind even now on whether there is enough material against A Raja or it still wants to defend him in some wishy-washy way.
Kapil Sibal: Two issues, in fact three. Number one - Is there enough material against Raja and there are two issues there. One were the decisions taken by Raja administratively and on the executive side fair transparent and reasonable.
Barkha Dutt: And do you believe they were?
Kapil Sibal: I am not going to give opinions on air to channels, right, Number 2...
Barkha Dutt: The CAG report believes so...
Kapil Sibal: No no. Fine the CAG report is going to be looked at by the PAC but that's the administrative side. Second is the criminal culpability. In October 2009, the CBI started investigating the matter. We are still awaiting the report. Now as I told you, the law is that once the CBI completes the investigation, then the materials will be placed before the Prime Minister seeking sanction to prosecute or not prosecute. If the CBI comes to the conclusion that after the investigation prosecution is required, right, that's the stage of the sanction. Now that we cannot comment at this stage, so culpability we cannot comment on, administratively we are going to deal with the matter. And we are willing to go to Parliament, but let Parliament function. We can't make a statement in Parliament if the Opposition says that unless you agree to the JPC we will not allow you to function.
Barkha Dutt: But the CAG report on the administrative point you raised clearly talks about that. It clearly calculates a presumptive loss because of poor policy making. It speaks of some kind of arbitrariness, if not corruption in the allocation of licenses.
Kapil Sibal: You must remember the CAG report said the same thing in 2001. Remember when the NTP policy came and there was a migration and these people who had participated in the auction couldn't pay up the money, the 1999 policy told them to migrate to the revenue sharing. Look at the PAC report then. Exactly same. Big loss, big revenue loss, was there a JPC? So CAG is meant to, CAG is the constitutional authority who is meant to criticise and I am glad CAG is criticising.
Barkha Dutt: So you are saying we don't need to take it seriously.
Kapil Sibal: No, we must take it seriously. That is why the matter goes to the Public Accounts committee. The PAC examines it and finds out whether the CAG has come to right conclusions or the wrong ones, not the government, there after action is taken. So people have got it wrong. Government does not act on CAG report on its own. It goes to PAC and in any case dehorns all this. I am examining the issue meticulously and if I find on the administrative side that there has been procedural injustice, or the procedures or law were neither transparent or fair, I am entitled to take action whether the CAG says it or not and on the criminal side if the CBI comes to a conclusion, then of course, the process of law must take their course. So I don't see what the problem is and I don't know why Parliament is not being allowed to run.
Barkha Dutt: Let me frame it as a moral question, a question of perceptions. It's no secret that the Congress would have preferred that A Raja not be in this government and have exited a long time ago. It's also a secret in May 2009, that the Prime Minister did not want TR Baalu and A Raja in the Cabinet, and also walked out of the government for a while threatening outside support. All this is well known, well documented. The Prime Minister in his press conference said if the law finds him guilty, action will be taken against A Raja. Looking at the CAG report, there is prima facie a very strong case of corruption against Mr Raja.
Kapil Sibal: CAG report cannot talk about corruption. That is not the limit of the CAG. We may talk of a loss of revenue, why was there a loss of revenue. Is it because of wrong administrative actions, or other illegal actions. Now that cannot be investigated by the CAG. That is being investigated by the CBI.
Barkha Dutt: But the CAG talks of corruption and irregularities.
Kapil Sibal: No, Barkha, no. Action can be taken on that basis, till such time as the...
Barkha Dutt: Then why was he asked to resign?
Kapil Sibal: That's another matter. Why was Natwar Singh asked to resign? Why was Shashi Tharoor asked to resign or Ashok Chavan asked to resign? Because the public perception is that prima facie there is something wrong.
Barkha Dutt: But his party doesn't share this perception.
Kapil Sibal: As far as the Congress goes, ministers have always asked them to resign. None of the NDA ministers have resigned. You give me an example, when BJP was in power have they ever asked anybody to resign? Whether it was Tehelka or petrol scam land scam? Now what's happening in Karnataka, what happened earlier in Karnataka, how people were bought over the mining scam, you name them. Have they ever asked anybody to resign? They have in fact embraced them twice over. So, here is a sensitive Prime Minister, a sensitive government which always acts, and which is willing to act. You cannot say I will not allow the Parliament to run till such time or I will not let you have a debate in the House. We are willing for a debate.
Barkha Dutt: There is a very simple argument at the heart of this controversy, and that is that rates of 2001 were applied six years later. You've heard this before, you've heard this a lot of times...the question is that it sounds like there is a complete nexus between A Raja and select corporate houses, something that the CAG report says.
Kapil Sibal: Let's look at history now. In 1995, when the auctions took place, what happened then? These guys over bid, they couldn't pay back, that is why the 1999 policy. When the 1999 policy happened, before 2004, 51 licenses were given...on what basis? On the same basis, without charging except for the revenue sharing and 1650 entry charge, which was based on 2001, the fourth player who entered into the market, whatever he paid, was taken to be the charge. That's been happening even before Raja came in. Now the argument can be made that things have changed, and rightly so, things have changed. 2008 is different from 2001, Tele density has increased was Raja's argument, that in fact, because the entry level was low. That was the reason why Tele density went from six per cent to 58 per cent today. Now if there is any wrong doing that is found, or if I find that the process of dealing with the licenses or giving the licenses was wrong, we are free to take action. We are not hesitating, but we are saying allow the debate in the Parliament, allow the Parliament proceedings to speak to you. The framers of the constitution didn't think that part of Parliamentary democracy was not to allow Parliament to function.
Barkha Dutt: I think that's a fair point, but isn't it true that if A Raja was a Congressman, he would have resigned a year ago?
Kapil Sibal: I don't know what we would have done if A Raja was a Congressman. I don't know what, for example, what the BJP would have done if George Fernandez was in the BJP. These are all speculative questions.
Barkha Dutt: There is another reason why aside of Subramanian Swamy, most people believe the PM needs to speak. And the reason is as follows, there is documented correspondence between the PM and the former Telecom Minister Mr A Raja, where the PM talks about the need for the auctions to be transparent...
Kapil Sibal: Not true...
Barkha Dutt: Not true? These letters are well known...they are in the public domain.
Kapil Sibal: I have the documents...
Barkha Dutt: You are saying, the PM never wrote to Raja?
Kapil Sibal: No, No. The PM said all procedures must be fair and transparent. Then there is an annexure to that which gives information that he has revived from other sources. It is not part of the letter, so factually, unless you know the facts it is very difficult...
Barkha Dutt: But the annexure does source other information...
Kapil Sibal: It is not what others say.
Barkha Dutt: But he underlines the need for the auction to be transparent.
Kapil Sibal: He asked and Raja replied that very day, that he will follow the consistent policy that has been followed since 2001.
Barkha Dutt: But I have discussed it with the Finance Minister and the Law Minister.
Kapil Sibal: Whatever, and I am going to the External Affairs Minister, and I will not deviate from that procedure whether that was right or wrong.
Barkha Dutt: And the Prime Minister writes back a letter of acknowledgment and does not engage him further.
Kapil Sibal: Suppose, the Prime Minister writes me a letter saying you are entering a Public Private Partnership, make sure that it is transparent and fair and I say Mr Prime Minister I will make it transparent and fair, what do you expect the Prime Minister to do?
Barkha Dutt: But do you think this correspondence now implicates the Finance Minister, External Affairs Minister and the Prime Minister because Raja claims to have their endorsement for the policy he followed?
Kapil Sibal: No, that is not true, Raja claiming their endorsement. There is no such endorsement. The point is that Raja's view that the pricing issue is decided by the Department of Personnel and Training (DoPT).
Barkha Dutt: And that letter revealed that the Prime Minister was not quiet convinced.
Kapil Sibal: No, no, the Prime Minister is not saying. The Prime Minister is only saying look at some of these issues that have been put to me, and take them into account because everything must be fair and transparent and he says everything will be fair and transparent and that's my commitment to you. I'm not going to deviate from anything. No, in hindsight you can say Raja was doing this, Raja was doing that, I don't know what the case is, but whatever the case be please allow the government to look at these issues administratively. Let the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) look at these issues from a criminal stand and whatever is the right thing this government will do and we will never fall short in doing the right thing.
Barkha Dutt: The perception is that the Telecom Ministry is being run as the personal fiefdom of the DMK. There are another set of documents where Dayanidhi Maran who is the predecessor, is saying remove pricing out of the EGoM. The Cabinet Secretary says it is fine and it also seems to have the approval of the Prime Minister.
Kapil Sibal: No, no, that is also not true. Barkha, you have to understand the whole process with reference; with a policy framework that has been put in place since 2001. And what Raja keeps on repeating, is that pricing issue is eventually decided by TRAI. It is not decided by the government.
Barkha Dutt: But a politician can overrule.
Kapil Sibal: No, no, August 20, 2007 report by TRAI, talks of pricing and say as far as old existing licences were concerned, who had actually migrated to revenue sharing for the 800, 900 and 1800 MHz, they should be allowed to get extra spectrum, even new licences without change of policy under the same policy. That is what TRAI has said. Now, he says that TRAI also told me that I should do it. So, there are a lot of things. You see no government can take one or two letters and start taking decisions and knee jerk decisions.
Barkha Dutt: Hasn't the under pricing been apparent to the Congress?
Kapil Sibal: Take the media for example, they take one line from the letter and you put it out in the public domain, the context of the letter is not. Therefore allow us, give us the courtesy, the Opposition should do that, allow us that courtesy to do the right thing and have a debate in the Parliament.
Barkha Dutt: If there is a debate in Parliament will the Prime Minister speak?
Kapil Sibal: I don't know that is for the Prime Minister to decide.
Barkha Dutt: Because when Raja resigned, we received messages from the Prime Minister's office saying that the Prime Minster would be speaking in the Parliament next morning and he didn't speak and nobody explained why he didn't speak.
Kapil Sibal: I don't know.
Barkha Dutt: You know the Prime Minister well, doesn't he want to speak?
Kapil Sibal: I know the Prime Minister well, but I am not going to second speak why he didn't speak or whether he will speak or not. I don't know. I want a debate, the government wants a debate, the Parliament wants a debate, the Parliamentary Minister has said so not once but several times, Pranab Mukherjee wants a debate but here they think parliamentary democracy means no debate.
Barkha Dutt: If it goes on like this, will the Parliament be adjourned earlier than scheduled?
Kapil Sibal: I don't know. I think that.
Barkha Dutt: And won't that be running away from Parliament?
Kapil Sibal: I think government and Parliament are in positions to sit together; after all we have to work for the people of India. If we do not work, our budgets don't get passed, our allocations that are made don't get rolled out, people don't get the money they need, people don't get the roads they need and ultimately who are we harming? We are harming the people of India and somebody should think of that. We are willing to move and say let's have a debate, let the PAC do what it wants to do, let the court decide what it wants to decide, for god's sake don't forget the people of India.
Barkha Dutt: The Opposition argues that there is a difference between the JPC and PAC and the difference is that the PAC does not have certain powers of investigation.
Kapil Sibal: It is a political jamboree. Did they have a JPC when Tehelka happened? Did they have a JPC? Are they having some kind of a public investigation in Karnataka today? You know how the Lokayukta resigned in Karnataka. Did they have a JPC when the petrol pump scam happened? Did they have the JPC when the land scam happened? I mean, what are they talking about?
Barkha Dutt: But why the reluctance?
Kapil Sibal: For what? JPC is going to do what? To bash people politically and publicly everyday so that the media gets more and more news to publish? Both the print and the electronic. This is all politics. I mean Subramanian Swami is all about politics, this JPC demand is about politics, the opposition not allowing parliament is about politics nothing is about the good of the people of this country.
Barkha Dutt: Subramanian Swami also claims that the Attorney General who will represent the Government in the court tomorrow has a conflict of interest because he gave an opinion about A Raja earlier.
Kapil Sibal: I think that too much valuable media time has been spent on Subramanian Swami. I think we should just leave it. Let him say what he wants to say.
Barkha Dutt: What will the affidavit tell the court tomorrow?
Kapil Sibal: Surely you don't expect me to answer that.
Barkha Dutt: The court spoke about information being held back. The Supreme Court observed that some information may have been held back.
Kapil Sibal: Again you're asking me to respond. See, it'll be wholly irresponsible for a minister in the Government of India to start responding to the observations of the court. Whatever is required under law, we will do (and) we will do it by tomorrow.
Barkha Dutt: Are you concerned that there is some sort of brewing, a standoff with the judiciary in what we've heard from the Supreme Court, some newspaper editorials have suggested that the Supreme Court has over reached...
Kapil Sibal: No, there is no standoff. We respect the enormous role that the judiciary plays in the functioning of the state, and we respect it fully. There is no question of standoff and we have never ever, this government or in the past has never sought to queer the pitch, or we've been careful and especially the Prime Minister. Whenever he's talked about the judiciary, it's in the most adulatory terms. Of course there are issues that with the judiciary itself we'll address, but I don't think there is any possibility of a standoff.
Barkha Dutt: Isn't it paradoxical that the CAG report speaks about Raja bypassing the Prime Minister? This is not me, this is the CAG report. On the other hand there is a situation, perhaps because of the political mismanagement with the Prime Minister getting ensnared in the controversy. Wouldn't the controversy end if the Prime Minister just spoke? Why doesn't he speak?
Kapil Sibal: If the Prime Minister spoke, Subramanian Swami will speak much louder and more often. I don't know...
Barkha Dutt: So that why he's not speaking?
Kapil Sibal: No, it's not that. See, why are you expecting the Prime Minister to do A or B. Let there be a debate in Parliament. The Prime Minister will do what's best.
Barkha Dutt: Public perception is that when this Prime Minister, and again I'm saying a man of unimpeachable personal integrity, feels strongly about something, he takes a position.
Kapil Sibal: Why do you think he will not take a position?
Barkha Dutt: We'd just like to know what that position is.
Kapil Sibal: You will get to know.
Barkha Dutt: Parliament doesn't look like this log jam is ending. Where are we headed?
Kapil Sibal: A dysfunctional parliamentary system in which the opposition, for reasons that are best known to them, will not allow this Government to function and people of India to get the benefits of a functioning government. I think that's what it is.
Barkha Dutt: Would you consider - I am asking you again - adjourning the Parliament ahead of schedule?
Kapil Sibal: I don't know. I'm not the one to decide and I am not going to contemplate or make any comment on that.
Barkha Dutt: One of the things that we haven't spoken about is the recommendation by the present regulator, the Chairman of the Telecom Regulatory Authority of India, to scrap the 69 licenses. Now this is a reasonably serious thing because some experts are arguing that you've got to make the companies pay the loss in revenue, without making the consumer pay. Have you studied this, and are you inclined to accept this recommendation?
Kapil Sibal: The recommendations have come that many of the companies have not rolled out in the context of what the promises were and what the obligations were. Now we have to examine all that. It came yesterday and I've asked my ministry to examine all these issues and once we examine it, we'll have to study the contracts, study the consequences, do they get extra time under the contract or are there penalties to be paid? All those things will have to be studied. We will also seek the opinion of the Law Ministry on this because we can't do anything on our own. So all this will be done, and we will do it as soon as possible. I believe that the Telecom and Communications Ministry is a very key ministry because a lot of the revenue of this country, apart from the normal budgetary processes, comes from Telecom, and it has enormous potential. So we must ensure that this potential is realised in the future. But, that can only be done if the ministry is perceived to be functioning in a transparent, fair and reasonable manner. That I promise to the people of this country, Everybody, all stake holders will be dealt with fairly; will not be dealt with unequally.
Barkha Dutt: No shadowy corporate battles like we seem to have seen?
Kapil Sibal: Nothing. As far as the ministry is concerned we will consider everybody on the same platter and deal with them fairly. That's my promise to the industry. Now beyond that, after all in any system there are problems. We'll deal with problems as and when they come, but we'll sort this out. I don't think that the industry should be worried. We want this particular industry to move forward every quickly for our own benefit.
Barkha Dutt: But is it a practical option at all to scrap the licenses?
Kapil Sibal: I am not going to respond to any of this. This is not fair. Governments don't do...
Barkha Dutt: Think aloud...
Kapil Sibal: No, we may not even want to think aloud. These are knee jerk reactions and I don't want to fall into that trap.
Barkha Dutt: It is seen as quite significant that the Telecom portfolio didn't go to a DMK person this time. It went to a Congress man and it went to you because all this while, the back channel negotiation, it is kind of parked for the DMK. Clearly, the Congress is asserting itself in this alliance...
Kapil Sibal: I don't know. This is all temporary.
Barkha Dutt: We don't know that. When is that overdue reshuffle happening?
Kapil Sibal: All my charges are temporary and I'm like a night watchman! I will duck the bouncers and I will try and play safely.
Barkha Dutt: How are you juggling between HRD, Science and Technology, Telecom?
Kapil Sibal: Not an issue, not an issue at all. I have excellent officers in HRD. I have excellent officers in Science and Technology and that's a ministry I know. It's all going smoothly, and I'll ensure that this ministry, the perception of this ministry is the same as some of the others.
Barkha Dutt: Which is the next additional charge you're getting?
Kapil Sibal: Please don't...
Barkha Dutt: Kapil Sibal pleasure to have you on the show.
Kapil Sibal: Thanks.