Anil Kakodkar (L) with Shekhar Gupta (R) on 'Walk the Talk'.
Speaking exclusively to NDTV on Walk The Talk, Anil Kakodkar, Chairman of IIT Bombay's Board of Governors, says he has resigned because he did not want to be part of the selection process of IIT directors which was "too casual" and like "running a lottery".
Following is the transcript of the first part of Walk the Talk featuring Mr Kakodkar: Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk, I am Shekhar Gupta in Mumbai University campus at Kalina, not far from the airport and my guest today is one of India's most eminent nuclear scientists and the guardian and patron of Indian higher education, Dr Anil Kakodkar, such a privilege to host you on Walk the Talk and you are so generous with your time and your patience
Anil Kakodkar: My privilege
Shekhar Gupta: I think this comes from doing research, this patience
Anil Kakodkar: Well you have to have patience because everything doesn't happen the way you like. Even in the research you have to go through several kinds of distractions and diversions
Shekhar Gupta: And many of your presumptions can go wrong, facts may turn out to be contrary
Anil Kakodkar: Indeed
Shekhar Gupta: So you need an open mind
Anil Kakodkar: Open mind, take things as they come and have patience as you said.
Shekhar Gupta: And Sir patience also becomes very important because it deals with a very complicated system in India
Anil Kakodkar: Yes that's right. In fact in a controlled system
Shekhar Gupta: China?
Anil Kakodkar: Well no, I was giving you an analogy. In a controlled system you want stability. You have to introduce some elements. You can equate those with patience. So in dealings things if you don't have patience your work itself may become unstable, so patience is an important stabilising factor
Shekhar Gupta: So Sir, '74, '98 gets done, then you come under all these sanctions and this big opportunity comes to get rid of the sanctions. In a way we know Jaswant Singh-Strobe Talbott talks took place. But then the nuclear deal, initially if I remember correctly, you were concerned about the nuclear deal, the Indo-US nuclear deal?
Anil Kakodkar: Well see, I have been always concerned about some things, certain things. But let me explain to you in detail. See around that time we had this NSSP Next Steps in Strategic Partnership, American strategy, and I was asked the question that time, that what do you think, is it in our interest? And frankly in NSSP there is hardly anything for atomic energy, but I said that look that there is nothing for atomic energy in that, but these optics are good so let us move further. In a sense you know, the next step from my perspective was India has done everything according to its international obligations. We have done nothing wrong. Why is it that people should look at it India as a pariah? We should get into the mainstream. Now that does not mean that we should compromise our...
Shekhar Gupta: But get on the scientific high table...
Anil Kakodkar: Not only scientific high table, but you don't compromise with your strategic positioning in the sense we have come to atomic energy at some point. Tomorrow the things we want, and I think those options should remain open, but keeping that as a given, can we see ways of getting into the mainstream? Can India stitch apolitically, international politics? Can it go up? And of course we were suffering uranium constraint. Our reactors' capacity factors were going down day by day. Now I, talking to people in IAEA, it was very clear that there is tremendous respect about India's capability and India's discipline. So I think you would have noticed at that time in quick succession the French people came and said you should join in at thermonuclear energy project, it was an expensive project, but you know quickly join that project
Shekhar Gupta: You were out to embrace the world
Anil Kakodkar: That's right, and then slowly get into, for example, the French and the Russians, both said, because we were talking to these countries earlier, but no, no, nothing can happen unless Americans come on board, so this discussion...
Shekhar Gupta: So Sir, what were your doubts about the nuclear deal?
Anil Kakodkar: My doubts about the nuclear deal was that while whatever comes from outside, putting that under IAEA safeguard is no issue because even Tarapur Unit 1 and 2 are like that, no issue...
Shekhar Gupta: Even Rajasthan
Anil Kakodkar: But whatever we do on our own that must be protected. And primarily, because for example you want to get a new reactor, its not that you will make a design and new reactor will be built in a copybook fashion. There is no certain path. You have to mid-course correction change. Now if you want all that, under international inspection, where you have to spell out in advance what you are going to do, and if you deviate from that path immediately you become an object of suspicion. You can't do such development. So all future development and we have this three stages, lot of things to happen, all that should remain completely with India, so that is what I mean strategic autonomy
Shekhar Gupta: So you think the deal finally....
Anil Kakodkar: So strategic autonomy, we must have strategic autonomy and there were issues you know, there was a lot of anxiety among people. This is an opportunity, kardo jaldi kardo, you don't understand international politics, look I understand one line from my MEA colleague, that you define your redlines and then make them darker, sharper, wider, so that's what and will stay within that...
Shekhar Gupta: So Sir, the deal that we finally got, which now Mr. Modi has also endorsed very strongly, do you think that deal answers these concerns of yours?
Anil Kakodkar: Very much
Shekhar Gupta: Protects our strategic autonomy?
Anil Kakodkar: Very much
Shekhar Gupta: My own understanding is that your moral and scientific authority really resulted in lot of rectification there. Lots of fine-tuning there
Anil Kakodkar: Well I don't know, but I made my contribution there
Shekhar Gupta: Your soft spoken authority
Anil Kakodkar: Okay
Shekhar Gupta: So what has that done to Indian nuclear research and the entire setup, in terms of separating military from non-military? Has it helped both, has it hindered both or helped one, hindered the other?
Anil Kakodkar: It has helped, for example you are seeing the capacity factor of our reactors have gone up now uranium is available wherever, so that's a gain. The development that you want to do on our own is also going by working well. Defence certainly, but also we are working on fast reactor thorium, all that is going...
Shekhar Gupta: So whatever we are doing on the arms side, we don't have to get concerned about Pakistan getting into the tactical nuclear because that destabilising....
Anil Kakodkar: I don't think, at least technically, that's a problem
Shekhar Gupta: What would you tell the Pakistanis on this because this is an escalatory step?
Anil Kakodkar: Well I think the business of managing deterrents has to be done carefully. The fact is I told you '98 test we have developed thermonuclear capability so the entire range is there, so our deployment also would cover all of this, depending on the need
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, that is the worry. Sometimes I find in our country people don't understand nuclear weapons. They think that a nuclear bomb is an oversize daisy cutter. You know that big bomb that Americans use to burst bunkers, char panch hum daal dete hai char panch wo dal denge. It's more serious business
Anil Kakodkar: Yes much more
Shekhar Gupta: As a nuclear scientist you would prefer that these are never tested in real life?
Anil Kakodkar: Well that's how Dr Kalam described that as weapons of peace..
Shekhar Gupta: So said my friend Raj Chengappa, he titled his book like that. So Sir, I have got time with you so I need a few more minutes with you. Every secret that's worth keeping is with you. So you are one of the most trusted people in this country, the most respected people in this country. You know you are the patron guardian of many higher institutions, particularly the IITs. Do you see threats to the autonomy of these institutions going ahead, or do you see these institutions losing their quality or brand value going ahead?
Anil Kakodkar: Well I think IITs' brand value is actually going ahead, going up. See there is in one of the slides, which I gave the presentation
Shekhar Gupta: I will ask you what is that cillage?
Anil Kakodkar: But before that, on this particular point there is a ranking done of different universities, by a US group, on the universities which have produced the maximum number of the people who have created startups backed up by venture capital. And all old IITs, together they rank 4th highest in the world, ahead of some of the institutions like Harvard
Shekhar Gupta: So Sir, when higher institution ranking is done IITs is still fall way behind
Anil Kakodkar: See there are reasons. The global institutions are huge institutions. Universities abroad when you talk about, I am not saying all, but typically they will be easily twenty to twenty five thousand students, it will comprise all departments. IITs are basically technological institutions, so you look at ranking among technology institutions and you will find IITs are maybe 50-60
Shekhar Gupta: So would you say don't worry about that ranking or would you say IIT should also expand?
Anil Kakodkar: IITs should become more comprehensive because capability to build products, capability of building products, of course you should know science, you should be able to translate it. You should also understand the society in which that product is to be used.
Shekhar Gupta: So IITs should also focus on liberal arts?
Anil Kakodkar: Liberal Arts, IITs must become comprehensive institutions. IITs must be like larger institutions, they should produce a much larger number of PhDs and we should facilitate all that.
Shekhar Gupta: In fact one of India's foremost, globally known economists is an IIT graduate, Dr Raghuram Rajan, of RBI. So Sir, do you see a threat to the autonomy of IITs or do you see, because every five years there is some noise, some Minister, some Secretary and again the same noise starts. It started under Murli Manohar Joshi and then Arjun Singh, its bipartisanism, under every party it happens, so what's this tendency on behalf of Delhi as we call it, Shastri Bhavan in this case, to try and fix what is not broken and ignore everything that is broken, which is the rest of education system?
Anil Kakodkar: I share your concern but I hope IIT's systems are robust enough to resist this and carry on the good work
Shekhar Gupta: But some things have to be resisted
Anil Kakodkar: I think so. I think one of the important things about good institutions is there's sort of a strong basis in their own peer group and it's not as if whatever is said, is said by an individual. It should be coming from the community and on the basis of their credibility
Shekhar Gupta: Because you recently had to deal with a situation
(The second half of the transcript will be released when the second part of the interview airs on Walk The Talk next week)