New Delhi:
In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Public Accounts Committee (PAC) chairman Murli Manohar Joshi says he did not leak the committee's report on 2G scam. The report drafted by Joshi criticises Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and former Finance Minister P Chidambaram, suggesting that not enough was done to stop A Raja of the DMK from abusing his office as Telecom Minister during the auction of 2G spectrum.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:
Vikram Chandra: The BJP, yesterday, very clearly saying that it is Mr Chidambaram on whom the fire should now go on. How would you like to react to that? They are basing it on your report.
Murli Manohar Joshi: I am speaking as a chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) on the report. Not as a member of any political party, at the moment. Our report is very clear and categorically based on the documents and evidences. The evidence was that till November the finance ministry was all the time stressing that the pricing should be determined jointly between the Department of Telecom (DOT) and finance ministry. December they were quiet. In January the licences were issued. On January 9 reports come that these companies are going to be benefited by the licences and these will be not given licences. Now that was the occasion again to be alert that what is happening? Why licenses are given? What cost? What price? What is the mechanism? ...and on 10th the licenses are issued. On 15th, a note goes that whatever has happened has happened, let us look for the future. Now, therefore, the question is that at the time when the country needed money, remember the year 2008 was the year of global meltdown...
Vikram Chandra: ... So they could have used this occasion to raise money. Sir, Mr Chidambaram is not here, nor is anyone from the Congress party. So, I am really going to put it to you what Mr Chidambaram's essential defence is and how he is rebutting some of the charges that you have placed against him...Essentially what Mr Chidambaram is saying is that the finance ministry was the one that was vigilant. They kept writing letters saying that this is not the way it should be done, there should be an auction and when on January 15 he actually did send that letter saying that "matter should be closed." What he was referring to by the matter was not entry fees but actually spectrum usage charges.
Murli Manohar Joshi: This is a different issue. See, what we are saying is this - they needed money, the defence of the finance secretary was that we were busy with the budget in the month of December and so, if they were busy with the budget they should have thought about mopping off of money from different sources. And here was a source which could have given them too much money and the licenses were being issued. Why could they not say that these licenses have been issued on wrong grounds, please stop it. The Prime Minister please intervene. We have a source which can give us lot of money and is being mis-utilised.
Vikram Chandra: I just want to say that what Mr Chidambaram is saying is - that in the note, in the same note you are referring to, there were three specific measures suggested by him for raising revenue including - additional revenues from licenses who held spectrum over and above start-up spectrum, charging prospectively the price discovered by the auction. So, Mr Chidambaram's case is that he did suggest all these...
Murli Manohar Joshi: Prospectively. What has happened, you see the basic thing, this scam relates to what had happened. What happens prospectively is fine. The question is what has happened? Why not retrospectively? Why could he not say the ministry could not say or point out to the Prime Minister, Sir, this is a total contravention of cabinet decision, please intervene. And now you see, the report is there, it is sent to the ministry. It will go to his ministry also for his comments. Let the comments come before the PAC.
Vikram Chandra: What Mr Chidamabaram is saying is that Paragraph 9 refers to... what you were saying "matter should be closed" was referring to a certain matter. Thus, paragraph 11, 12, 13 that have specific measures put in by him to raising additional revenue, which you did not refer to. And you did not point out when you were preparing your report that when he says "the matter should be closed" he was only referring to one aspect of the matter.
Murli Manohar Joshi: Again you see, we are referring to what had happened. What is going to happen in the future, prospectively, is okay. What has already happened, what has brought a huge loss to the exchequer, and it is the duty of the finance ministry and the finance minister to prevent all such losses. And specially when they were enjoined by the Cabinet decision to determine the prices jointly.
Vikram Chandra: Okay. But Mr Chidambaram also says...is that... what is the real issue, why do we say there is a 2G scam? Because people got licenses at throw away prices. They then sold those to other companies such as Swan and so and so forth at much higher prices and made windfall gain. Now Mr Chidambaram says in this very same note that you refer to, something which you haven't mentioned in your report, is that they had said they should share part of the premium with that Government.
Murli Manohar Joshi: No. It's not that only. You see, this scam means that something irregular has happened, something wrong has happened, illegal has happened. The duty is to prevent that illegality. It means okay, you have looted but please share some part of the loot with us. That is something ridiculous.
Vikram Chandra: Okay. But now I am trying to figure out, because BJP is essentially saying, and I know you are here in you capacity as chairperson of PAC, but BJP says that it is Chidambaram whom people need to go after. I am just trying to figure out whether that is a correct way of doing it.
Murli Manohar Joshi: What is am saying is, again I am saying it, that I am confined to only what I have written, the report says...This report has been prepared by the secretariat, weighted by the CAG. It's not my personal report. Somebody said I have written it. No, that is the basic thing.
Vikram Chandra: We will come to report because that was rejected by 11 people. But before we finish with Mr Chidamaberam, I just wanted to play for you what he said about the PAC report. Let's just hear what he said at the press conference, some rather strong remarks...
"Even a person of average intelligence will know that the note dealt with spectrum usage charges and not with entry fee."
Vikram Chandra: Even a person with average intelligence would know. You think that is a hit at you?
Murli Manohar Joshi: You see, it is the impression or his assessment of the things but I say the same thing - anybody who reads the report, goes through the whole narrative and the evidences and the documents will come to a certain conclusion and then Mr Chidambaram has an opportunity to respond to the report back to the PAC in the action taken report. He can argue there, his secretary were there to argue about it. Nobody said that they are saying about this.. what Mr Chidambaram is referring to.
Vikram Chandra: Okay. Can i just ask you Sir- A report which is.. there is a PAC, there are 21 members in it. When 11 members say we refuse to accept this report and we reject this report completely. 11 out of 21 is more than 50 per cent. So doesn't that mean the report, in the sense of what Congress is saying, has been thrown into the dustbin?
Murli Manohar Joshi: I am not talking from the political party's point of view. I am talking from the rules and the conventions of the PAC. In PAC there is no such thing as if there is a dissent for the draft report. A draft report is circulated. It is discussed para wise and only for some cases where you find some irregularity, factual incorrectness or improvement in the language - this should be presented like this. When you discuss paras, you say that this is not acceptable. There we discuss. And if the majority says this para is not properly drafted...
Vikram Chandra: But isn't that what's happening here - 11 out of 21 members are saying we do not agree with the report. Is it only the chairman who decides what the report is meant to be?
Murli Manohar Joshi: The report was not discussed. What are they disagreeing with?
Vikram Chandra: So why was the report not discussed? In fact, that it one of the issues, that why was it not discussed before you made it public?
Murli Manohar Joshi: Because they said, the members said, we can't take this report because the name of the Prime Minster and ministers occur in it. Do you mean to say that the PAC is only there to put the thumb impression on whatever the Government says. The observations of the PAC are based on the very factual accounts given by the CAG and by the documents given to us by the PMO, the finance ministry, the law ministry, the DOT.
Vikram Chandra: Okay. But you would be prepared to go in for a paragraph by paragraph reading of the report and these are the aspects in the report which are not correct and these are correct.
Murli Manohar Joshi: No, no. Nobody said it. Some members presented their views and we incorporated in that. Now you are not ready to discuss these things. Why? We are going to reject it. You hold a press conference before that and then say that we reject it.
Vikram Chandra: But didn't you also leak it to the press before it was discussed?
Murli Manohar Joshi: No, no.. How can I leak it? No.
Vikram Chandra: Who leaked it?
Murli Manohar Joshi: I don't know who leaked it. They might have themselves leaked it to create a hungama. Why do you say that? My staff didn't leak it, CAG didn't leak it. Either some of the members - 11 members are there who are opposed to it as you say. Then, they could have leaked it. Why say that we leaked it? And then you see the question is that to hold a press conference, the same issue could have been raised with the Speaker or with us in the PAC meeting - that this is to be examined and I have written to the Speaker on that very day that this is a serious issue. They say that the report has been outsourced. It means then all the reports which are drafted by the Lok Sabha secretariat will become suspect. All procedures of the Parliament will become suspect and then you see, I have special charge on them. They want to oppose this report because it doesn't suit them. Then they will oppose any decision of the Parliament because it doesn't suit them. They will throw any decision of the Supreme Court into dustbin because it doesn't suit them. They can amend the constitution because it doesn't suit them and impose emergency as it has been done earlier.
Vikram Chandra: So, when we have a situation like right now - you have been re-elected as the chairperson of PAC, something which majority of members of PAC were actually objecting to, as I said 11 out of 21...How are we going to function on the PAC now? Do we now have to wait for JPC to see what that throws up?
Murli Manohar Joshi: The PAC will function according to the rules. PAC has to examine so many things which the CAG has given.
Vikram Chandra: Even with 11 out 21 members not willing to take part?
Murli Manohar Joshi: Are they not taking part? Let us see. I don't think that they can even afford to say that are not taking part. That will be the onslaught on democratic functioning and on the very institution which is...Just two days ago Mr Pranab Mukherjee says that PAC and CAG are the watchdogs. They are very powerful instruments to keep checks and balances and today they are saying we are going to boycott it?
Vikram Chandra: Okay. Dr Joshi, are you prepared then, suppose they say, alright we want to go back to this report paragraph by paragraph, aspects of that which are wrong...
Murli Manohar Joshi: Report has been finalised now, and that report has been given to the Government and now the Government...
Vikram Chandra: Now where is the question of discussion? You just said that we should be able to...
Murli Manohar Joshi: That PAC is over now. The report has been submitted to the...
Vikram Chandra: So you as a chairman can present the report without discussing it with anyone else? Even if they disagree with it?
Murli Manohar Joshi: There is no question of discussion on it. This is a question of circulation, and then amendment, and then suggestions. You are not suggesting it. You are saying we are not ready to talk about it. This is against the basic principle of PAC. You must first understand how the PAC works.
Vikram Chandra: Okay. So you are saying that now the possibility of discussions is over...that is the report.
Murli Manohar Joshi: On that report the Government has to take an action now. They have to respond. Then that response...
Vikram Chandra: Even though majority of people have rejected it?
Murli Manohar Joshi: There is no question of rejection. Why are you saying rejection? Where is the rejection? You are a biased person it means. There is no rejection. They held a meeting which was unconstitutional.
Vikram Chandra: So you are saying, when the chairman has decided something, then...
Murli Manohar Joshi: Chairman and the rules...the verbatim report is there. The reporters do take record. I don't record it. They must know the rules. They must function according to the rules.
Vikram Chandra: Alright, so you are saying, if at that time they had said we are willing to do a paragraph by paragraph discussion, you would have been okay by it?
Murli Manohar Joshi: Yes.
Vikram Chandra: Because they did not do that and rejected the report in toto, therefore, the report now stands.
Murli Manohar Joshi: They did not discuss at all. They were not prepared to discuss at all. And other members were ready to discuss. The were discussing, they had sent some amendments, they had sent some suggestions which were incorporated. The report was vetted by the CAG and submitted to the Speaker.
Vikram Chandra: Alright, Dr Joshi. It is always a pleasure having you with us and just because journalists ask questions about what happened doesn't mean they are biased. Just to end with that. Thank you Dr Joshi. Great to have you with us.