Hello and welcome to the big Fight, a show that is not 23 years old but young at 23. Because this is the oldest running debate show on Indian news television, I'm san you see yet another debate on opposition unity yet another debate on their fighting chance against the B JP. But something very interesting happened last week. UP a went out that is, a United Progressive Alliance. That name went out and opposition unity, which is 26 members strong now from their 17 adopted a new name called India Indian National Developmental Inclusive Alliance and the catch line was bale BJ India. But the big question is with an ND a, which numerically has tried to outperform this India alliance by adding 39 alliance partners. The criticism is that many of those alliance partners have no representation at all. And yet this number, numerically it has been swollen to become 39 strong. Is it just going to be a B JP show along with these little formations? And can the opposition rid themselves off the little problems that we have seen? We are all too familiar with ego battles, seat distribution issues, who goes where and how traditionally opposition unity has fizzled out. Will those problems be overcome in future meetings? This contest has gotten better between the B JP and the Congress in the form of their respective alliances. India and India. Does this opposition alliance have a big chance of winning 2024? What do you think? Can they do it? Let's kick start the big fight. Let me introduce our guest in the studio. MA F is a consulting editor of the Business Standard. Thank you very much for joining us. Shama Mohammad, spokesperson of the Congress Party Thank you very much for joining us in the studio. Aarti Jarrett, senior journalist. Aarti. You've lost the count. How many times you have debated opposition unity? BJP. But we'll keep doing that right up to 2024. We'll keep doing this. Sanja is also a senior journalist. In the studio with us is Mr Jan goal. Thank you so much for joining us. An lasing national spokesperson of the Party A party. We'll have some exclusive interviews also in just a short moment. But let's begin with what we call is the first punch where each one of our panellists get one minute of time for their opening comments. We'll begin with the political panellists first. Shama Mohammad, Your opening comments. Your time starts now. So according to me, what is happening is all these opposition parties have got together to protect this democracy because, as we have seen in the last nine years, this serious subversion of democracy Ms Bought sold people are called corrupt like Ajit Babar. Two weeks back he was corrupt 70,000 crore. But he is now the deputy chief minister of Apart Junta Party, government. Then we have a capture of institutions. We have seen income tax EC. Most of these institutions work according to what the government of the day want protection of women. We see rapists, most of the rapists, the government of India or the BJP government standing with rapists. I mean rape Accused. We have seen Ram Rahim out on parole twice this year. He's a convicted rapist as well as a murderer. Let's not forget it. We saw Bridge Bush and Sharan Singh's case in which for six months our athletes had to protest out in the streets no women's and joblessness, which we see unemployment and the other most important thing is price rise. These are the things the opposition is going to. They've come together. This is the first time in the history of India that 26 parties have come together. A pre poll alliance, you know, to fight against what is happening, where there is serious issues to everyone. And just now I was listening to me and she said that all these political parties, 26 political parties, they have come together to protect the democracy of this great nation. First of all, the leaders, Raul Gandhiji doesn't recognises this country as a nation. It is his statement, not mine. Secondly, when they say that there is no democracy in the nation, that how they have won elections in article or the Himachal Pradesh and how they had formed government in a different state, whether we talk about Chad or Rajasthan and etcetera, etcetera, where there is non BJP or non Congress political parties who are in power. So it's simply accusing Nare Modi that because of him there is no democracy in our country. That is the biggest lie they have to give answer what they have to say about the genocide which happened in Kashmir. What they have to say that how six were slaughtered, what they have to say the dang or the riots which happened during the UP. Whether we talk about start from the start from this ale, the B and the one minute opening comment time is up. I'll come back to you, Ms Aming, so that you can elaborate further on what you are saying. Uh, well, I think there's going to be a very interesting situation ahead of us. Uh, you have these two behemoth alliances and you have a third group of people who are not aligned to anybody you are. You also have a set of assembly elections leading up to the 24 Lusa by elections which are also going to set the stage in a way for the looks of by elections. So in those elections, some of those who are not allowed to any party are going to be any coalition are going to be tested, for instance, in Telangana and in an Pradesh and other places. And you are going to have a situation where nearly 100 seats 100 loss of our seats are not aligned to either of the two. So exactly what is going to happen in those seats and how that people voters are going to take a decision on that? I think that is also very, very important. So we have to talk of the third Force or the third Force and we are going to do that. So one must not see this only as India versus India. There is that third force also, which needs equal amount of attention, if not more. Mr. Sanji, these groupings are fine. It's true that 26 parties on an opposition platform have come together for the first time. But remember, there was also up in 2004. Part of it was people, and part of that was Post Po. In 2009 there was India and you had U. Both were alliances, kind of rival alliances again. 2019 again, U existed in some form. India, of course, was there, and about two dozen parties were there with the NDA. What matters actually matters is not. These numbers have the ground reality changed since 2019 and how far, if at all, how far and how opposition is going to challenge Mr Modi in coming elections on issues which actually directly concerns people. Democracy is over. There is no democracy in this country. Modi is a dictator. We have to say people of this country and CBI are governments kind of parrots. Remember, case parrot Supreme Court had said Parrot about CBI. What actually matters when you communicate with people, how much resonance your your narrative is going to have with people on the ground? How much delivery question you are providing and people have that kind of faith in leadership of credibility in terms of what leader of respective coalitions can provide. Those things, I think are more important for people actually on the ground. My opinion is anti incumbency is a law of nature. So 2014 and 2024 there is a far cry now 2014, We expected. James Bond has come after the Second World War. Like that situation was there, there is a major hype. Major expectation 2019. Still, opposition was not in the united Paloma was there. Pakistan issue was a major nationalism issue, was there. But now for the first time, especially after the Rahul Gandhi uh, this, uh and, uh, Karnataka victory The opposition regional parties also non Congress, non B GP opposition parties. Also, they have first time, perhaps in 2019. I have not seen this mode Now they are realising this is do or die situation Modi and this B GP is like a leviathan. If we want to stop this that we have to be maximum unity maximum. I mean, it had just been maximum One is to one that also Nish Kumar of they are discussing and with Congress also The problem is I have some apprehensions because perhaps I'm an old man Now, after 40 years of journalism, I have seen this 77 89 I have seen in a five years tenure of three prime ministers. OK, arty So you know elections are a question of arithmetic plus chemistry. Um, the winner is the one who has both arithmetic and chemistry on its side. OK, at the moment it looks like the ND a has that it has arithmetic. Plus it has chemistry in the form of a predominant leader who is charismatic. I think what the opposition is really hoping for is that given the kind of economic distress that we have seen over the last five years and the government's inability to kind of really address the issues on the ground. You know, whether it is food, inflation or it is employment or, you know, joblessness, rural distress and so on. What they're hoping is that that will convert into some kind of chemistry, because if you look at the arithmetic and you know, I mean, there are figures which I'm sure you're going to rule out now, which show that you know the B JP had a formidable victory in 2019, where in many places it won more than 50% of the votes. And even if you put the opposition votes together, it doesn't add up to a defeat for the B JP. So the opposition is going to have to produce a chemistry, And that chemistry depends on the narrative it comes up with. So far it it cannot be just arithmetic. So far, the narrative is not imaginative enough. It's not catchy enough, even after India, even after India they have it has to be something which catches the imagination. We haven't found that yet. We said the same thing on the chemistry theory but that didn't succeed. OK, I'll come back to you. I also have with me the Ahmadi Party member of Parliament Mr Raghav Chadda. Thank you very much, Mr Chadda, for joining us Opposition unity. With 26 parties coming together, a point was made right here by one of our panellists. It seems to be a very Marika alliance. As the Prime Minister also mentioned Mahia Alliance. This is Marika Alliance, where people from absolutely binary opposite ideological lines have come together from the to the from CPIM to the how does this work and where will you find your party? I think if there is one alliance in this country that has been created under compulsion, that alliance is the ND A which is produced, directed and brought to you by the ED that is the Enforcement Directorate that is an alliance of compulsion and coercion. If you were to remove enforcement directorate today from the face of this country, I and I can make this categorical assertion that 37 out of 38 members of the ND A will dump the ND A and move out. That is the hard reality of Indian politics today. In fact, our group or our coming together of different forces, some of them maybe in some electoral battles opposed to one another under the banner of India is an extremely welcome step. People on the demand of the people of this country. It is the people of this country that want a formidable challenger to the NDA today and they want to get rid of inflation, unemployment and they definitely want a departure from the N. I in fact, draw correlation between what is happening today in the year 2023 in the run up to 24 local of by elections, with that of the 1977 general elections. Even at that point in time, there was a mighty regime at the centre. People were fed up of that. Political parties are diametrically opposite to one another. One moment Do you feel that right now you are like the situation and mobilisation like 1977. And do you think another thing that happened with 1977 is that the government did not last very long? Certainly not a full five year term. So that is another problem with these coalitions well, fair enough. Well, then you had the coalition from 2004 to 2014. That lasted very well, and the coalition didn't break and they completed their full term. The outcome of that alliance is something we can discuss and debate on their performance and all that. So I'm notwithstanding anything. No comments on their performance. But they lasted a full decade. See, in the year 77 there was a pent up anger of the people against the then regime on issues of unemployment, inflation, the emergency that was imposed and thrust upon the people of India and so on and so forth. I think something similar. That anger is something that we see today in the in the people of this country. And therefore I'm saying that when in 77 political parties that were diametrically opposed to one another and ideologically diametrically opposite to one another from the to the Communist to the Socialists came under one banner and they fought on roughly 405 seats out of 543 and out of 405 seats that they fought. They won 2 95 and the Congress lost that election badly. The mighty Indira Gandhi lost that election badly. So I think the alliance of ID, which we call India, is an alliance which has been created by leaders and political parties that have sacrificed three. Ms. And I keep saying this again and again. They have sacrificed three Ms One math, second man and third is Matha. These three Ms have been sacrificed, and these political parties have come together for the greater good of the country to give a better blueprint for a better India. But my point is, how soon before you will resurrect these three. Ms and I and I and I draw your attention to your own party, which had, uh, quite a lot of. And with the Congress Party on the issue of the ordinance, Well, we most certainly requested every single political party in this country to support us on the ordinance and better late than never. The Congress Party finally announced publicly announced its stand and they are committed to voting against this legislation whenever it is introduced in Parliament, and we welcome that move Today. Nine critical allies of the BJP have dumped them allies, participants of the NDA have dumped them from the JDU to the to the TP to the Roman Khalid nine critical allies point number one point number two, the BJP that has for the longest time been harping on this A a sari The prime minister can take on everyone. It's Modi versus all today. That's not the case. Today they require 37 allies, out of which I guess 24 25 parties do not even have representative in Parliament. They require each one of them. So today the election which was previously being sold to the people of this country as Modi versus many, has become many versus many. And it's a fight between two coalitions. OK, But you know, again, all of the things that you are saying the various Ms that you are using raga are all going to be put to test in 2024. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you so much for your views. You know? You see, if you look at the statistics right, I would like to draw your attention to look up 2019. The opposition says that there are there. You want a one on one contest. That means one B JP candidate or ND, a candidate and one united opposition candidate correct. The whole effort is in that direction now. There were 100 and 90 such one on one contest between the B JP and the Congress. In 2019, the strike rate of the B JP there was 92.1% and the strike rate of the Congress Party was 7.9%. There are other other pieces of data also that I have, but I just want to ask you that if each party pulls their own respective weight, they could have delivered a lot on an existing one on one contest. So how is this one on one contest going to be any different in 2024 than it was in 2019? I'll tell you why. First and foremost, it's not 2019. It's 2024. Huge change in those five years after the Karnataka election Organiser organiser is the paper. It said that everybody has to step up. We cannot rely on the Modi brand. That is not what the Congress Party said. That is not what Shama Mohammed said. That is the RSS mouthpiece, which has said that so that itself they have understood after the Karnataka loss where everything was used muscle power, money, power. The other important thing is in 2019. What was the gas price? He had a lot of women votes from the UY around 600 or something. Now it is 1100. More than that, that will make a huge difference because everything tomato ₹180. In the last five years, we have seen the price of onion go up one year people could eat onion the other year, people could need dual. Now people can't eat tomato. So he talks about yoga and health. But the basic nutrients we cannot have because they are then the 5% GST on all these things which were below 20 kgs. Remember food, milk, doll everything. So for the common man, it is really affected. Look at the unemployment. Last December itself, it was 8.5%. May I ask No. Let me finish. Huge Mohammad, See, All these points were raised by let's take the example of Uttar Pradesh in the UP elections. All of this and much more was said about public anger on the ground, palpable amount of anger against the BJP government. Uh, and yet we saw their tally come down, but the opposition did not win. So the the theory that was spoken about by political pundits is that here is a case where people are angry but not angry enough to replace. So that's what Over there there was not a big coalition happening. Now there's a coalition there are so many See here there are parties in the opposition. No, not not a complete coalition. They were the they were parties on their own. There was Has had coalition between Samajwadi Party and Congress in 2017, but not in not in the last election. I'm talking about last election. I'm talking about last election we had with BP, which is now part of India. No, we didn't have a coalition with Samajwadi in the last election. That is what I'm trying to do. Samajwadi is coming to this. That's right, what I said. So what I'm trying to tell you is here is a coalition where there is a northern part of India, southern part of India, Eastern part of India. It's an all round coalition and let's understand that one of the biggest scams is this. There is cronyism and electoral bonds. I have a businessman who has stolen a couple of them. They said that 98% of electoral bonds go to the party agenda party. Now. They said that even if you don't give us money, don't give it to them. I mean, they are threatened. Business people are threatened because then they will send the they will tell income tax. Just look at for an example. He comes out in 2014 saying we are the party with a difference right now. What is the party with the difference? Two weeks before Mr Modi talks against Ajit, PABA says. He's very corrupt. He's involved in a 70,000. So what I What I'm saying is that if you and one more last point look at Manipur, have you ever seen anything like this in India? More than two months? The prime minister of India doesn't even say the word M, the home minister is still there. Why hasn't he given his resignation and I saying this one minute. The CM says there are 1000 such cases which is happening. The BJ PM in the States say we have lost faith in him. The people of the state say we have. Why is Modi not dismissing him? Because he never lose power there. More than 150 people have died. His problem is I cannot lose a state that in I don't give a damn about my people That is not in and we have heard the Congress Party and their view. I asked them a pointed question on the strike when one on one contest is being spoken about. Now the thing is, according to Ms Shama MoMA, this is the 2019 matrix 2024 matrix will be different because the opposition will be able to tap into the anger the people's anger and perception, which he spoke about. I want to know your assessment, right? You know, initially I heard about that, how politics works, and when we talk about the alliance, it is not only the chemistry, it is thematic also. OK, let's talk about the chemistry when we talk about the Allied partners so called allied partners of IN DIA because I am not going to call them India. India is our nation, our country. And we love India. So this alliance of I DIA it is like a soda water. You know, when they are together, you shake it up. Lots of this happens and then it settles down. So like, today only I was reading an article published by Derek O'Briant, leader of T MC. He says ideas. I have bang bang meeting me. So what happened in Patna meeting right? Somehow he says that in Patna Nothing happened. Everything happened in Bangalore. I don't know what they are going to do in Mumbai. This is the chemistry of these Allied partners. Now I heard Miss Shama again and again. She was saying, Oh, it is not 2019. It is going to be 2024. It is not 2019. It is going to be 2024. Number one! Let me tell you, ma'am, recent reporters 1 35 million people have come out of poverty in our nation and the biggest You can laugh. You can laugh. No, no, ma'am, I did not interject you and I think you should have some decency. You should go and you should go. And you should go and back up your knowledge. On finance, there are parameters by the United nation and on those on those you know, you do not have any knowledge about the when she was talking and she was simply, you know, she was simply accusing my girl. My leader. I did not interject her. She should show some decency if you compare 2014 and 2019 elections. Madam, you can laugh because your knowledge had 2 82 MPs in 2019. BJP alone had 303. And if we talk about 50%. A member of parliament who had won more more by the words of more than 50 person in 2014, 138 and 2019 2 24. If I start comparing, you will come to no 2019 election strike rate and in Statistics Party, party plus Allied partners. And I heard Mr Jedda let me Let me He said this all Of course, This all this alliance is going to work against or they're going to work together. Me how they can do it if we compare versus IN DIA. The majority of parties in their alliance are from states and they are regional parties. And with us there are parties who are small sized parties. So is a going to adjust his seats with Congress Party? Are they going to do some sort of adjustment? This is slightly hypothetical, so we'll have to wait and see how that happens. Let me quickly go to the election. The election in West Bank. They've been waiting patiently. My question is that data from 2019 shows that in one on one contests, which the opposition wants to do right now in 2024 which they believe will give them a better strike rate in those one on one contests on as many as 375 seats. 1 90 where the B JP and the Congress went head to head, and 100 and 85 other seats where non Congress parties went head to head with the B JP. In both these cases, the B JP had a strike rate of 70% plus so one on one contest, this is the This is the I mean, the main issue for this unity of this opposition. I'm telling you what Mata Nish Kumar Sharaf power. And they are talking to Congress leadership. They are trying to evolve the formula that six states they have identified also this Punjab, Delhi, West Bengal. We have discussed the states, Tele, Ghana and mhm be hard UP. But after this Karnataka election again the question will arise. The whole debate of Pash Mari that Rajasthan, Chaz and Mother Prades If Congress do better the school of thought in Congress that we are pan Indian party. We cannot leave six states to the regional parties. This is as simple as that. Then the number 5 43 seats. The Congress cannot be the main party to form the government. But if But if you don't sacrifice, then what you are saying the arithmetic and what a is saying? You won't have a fighting or a winning chance winning, so you have to compromise. So this is the main makes you think that they're not already doing that? I mean, in subsequent No, no, they they are trying to do this, but you know this seven. Just give a small example. Seven seats in Delhi. Can Sharma tell me that how many seats? Uh, she is ready to give it to party. Well, I mean, I have a I can't tell you, even if we go by 2019. You know, even if the one moment even if a we go by the 2019 statistics and assuming a party in Congress strike a deal, get sea sharing done even if they come together in 2019, their vote share combined in Delhi on seven seats was 40.6%. The B JP was at 56.86. So even if you come together, you don't win. In 2014, the B JP came in as an agent of change. Narendra Modi was somebody new who had come, you know, with the Gujarat model to offer the whole country. He rode on the back of a very strong anti corruption movement led by Naza. And ironically, and you know, he swept OK First time B JP won a majority government in 2019, although there were problems because demonetization had happened and so on. But in 2019, there was Pulwama, followed by Bala court, and there was a very strong nationalism fervour that swept the country which again gave the BJP more seats than it had today in 2020. As we head up to 2024 you know, I mean, if the opposition doesn't have a clear imaginative, you know, catchy narrative, even the B JP doesn't have a clear, catchy NA, you know, Imagin imaginative narrative. Not yet. Because if you're talking about roads, if you're talking about highways, if you're talking about one train, doesn't it remind you of the Shining India campaign of 2004, which actually sunk the BJP in 2004? Listen, a highway is great if I have a Mercedes Benz to ride. But if I'm riding a cycle or a mo bike, is that big grand highway going to be of any use to me? You see something very interesting happened, Mr Sanja sing this week the end of the name UP A and adopting a new name called India Happened. And on the other hand, in contrast, the B JP celebrated the 25th year of ND A. It's another thing that none of those original allies of the ND A from 1998 are part of this India. You've got Some obscure parties who do not even have representation in either with Han Saba or Luka are part of this alliance. So what, according to you, is the purpose of doing this? What was the purpose to show numeric strength or something more in any business that you do? Once your brand is not running, then you change the name of the brand. It has happened with many brands, including media, right. So demise of U, particularly in presence of Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi and a whole lot of Congress leaders where Congress was hosting this particular programme. Demise of is something to be seen. And what did you say about India? None of the original allies Still that the central party to that the fulcrum to ND is still there. The BJP is still there, and the BJP from its then strength today it's mightier than what it was it Listen to me. Listen to me, The party which associated with the BJP J in 2014 when it was with NDA and when it came with NDA again in 2019, J shrunk two seats when it came with N, India in 2019. It's stale winter from 2 to 17. I don't know what is going to happen in the next elections. The point that you are making as to how much appeal and how much magnetic power you have to attract. Not just political parties in numbers, but people the ground. How much capacity you have to transfer your votes. Numbers are also fine, but alliances are also fine. But until such time you have capacity to transfer those votes. I'll just give you an example that you are talking about 50% seats. See, in 2019, you had alliance in three states where one seat, one candidate formula was applicable. In this there was alliance between Samajwadi Party. You talked about this therefore I'm drafting to that Samajwadi Party. So much party unthinkable thing had happened. Rld and Congress, I would say, was a dormant partner because SP and BSP had not fielded candidates in and and same way they had not fielded candidates in several other constituencies. We know the result in Karnak and Congress government had come together in 2018 and 2019. They fought elections on a coalition plan. We know the result. Maharashtra, NC and Congress were already there as partners. Senna was not there. Of course. This time around, the splinter Senna is on both sides. We know what happened of results of split happened or the transfer from India happened after the 29 after 2019, N Kumar has gone back. He wants to become prime minister. That's a different story altogether, Ali went post Punjab farmers vegetation aid. Where does it stand in today in Punjab? That's a different matter altogether. I'm not saying that this does not mean that India has kind of those who have left have left for their own good. They might do well in 2024 but to say on the basis of ground, therefore, I'm saying you have to see the realities on the ground. Miss Faris made a very interesting point and we are not discussing because the conversation revolves around India and India. Why do you feel that these parties which are in neither of these camps, are going to hold the key? Well, I'm not saying they are going to hold. The key will be significant, but this is something we know very little about. And also, you know the numbers when you say one on 1 2019 96% for BJP, 7% for Congress, et cetera. It sounds really like staggering. Uh, but then you have to consider that the ND a is no longer the ND a and the UP a is no longer the UP. A many of those people who were in the UP a have gone across. Many of those who are in the ND a have come on the other side. So frankly, I mean, one on one in a certain situation has some meaning, and then you have to disaggregate. You have to slice and dice that one on one. After all, it's not as if in Bihar JDU brought absolutely nothing to the B JP table in 2019. You know equally, the BJP may have may have lost because it had the burden of lagging the JD on its shoulders. Let's take quick closing comments, Sharma Mohammad first. So what I wanted to say, she said. A couple of things, one I just want to say, is that why these coalition partners, they are now going in for small parties, 38 of them and not the big, because the big parties have learned a lesson that if you are an alliance partner with the Bahati Junta party, they finish you off. They break your party, they destroy you and they play around with you and the 38 parties they haven't got 9. 25 out of the 38 parties have no seats in the Luba. So that is one. Then she spoke about India and I want to ask her Is she with? She knows that the chief minister of the Bahati Junta party was saying that it's not India, but Bharat. But then they have stand up. India set up India, all those India, so they themselves are confused about Bharat and India. The other thing is the Oxfam and the United Nations report said that from 2004 to 2016 we have uplifted the government of India that is mainly the UP uplifted 27 crow and after the that is a report from them, not from anywhere else. And I can show you the report And after the covid 23 crew, people went into poverty. The other thing is like petty politics. Why are these coalition partners coming in? Why are these parties coming in because they have understood each state. For example, the Annaba scheme which we started out in Karnataka. We were told by the FC There is food, ₹34 per KG on the 12th and 13th. They say No, we cannot give you the central government. These are petty politics, played governor, dismissing a minister in Tamil Nadu. So is these issues. The most important issue will be, Let me tell you, is the joblessness and the price rise? Because basically the salaries have not gone up. Let's understand that but the price of anything If I'm saying that things are expensive from what I had in 2018 to now. Now with the gas prices, the food prices and the huge huge unemployment, I have calls from all over the madam chair because they have no private private investment is taken out of this country. How much job can the government do? Unemployment and manga? According to Shama, Mohammad is going to be the big, big focus, that narrative that you are talking about, that thing that will click with the people. That's what something that she has said repeatedly, gal and yeah, first you I think we should wait to see that. What should be the main issue of the campaign for BJP? Intelligently, This opposition so far I mean the opposition politics Is this the name India? Now you have created a that we are the opposition parties. We are giving you the counter narrative of Modi's narrative what is actually the counter narrative of the Nairobi model. So we are pluralistic. We secular. So all this philosophy they want to put in this India basket. But you don't know what will be the main campaign issue of BJP. We have to wait. Opposition should not underestimate more deals. OK, I don't think I don't think they are. We don't underestimate assuming that you would say Don't underestimate us because we are. Look at how we gone out with parties who we don't get wrong because we we believe in India, a pluralistic India. A lot of parties had a problem with the Congress Party saying that we stood with you. We did this this we attitude yes, they had a problem with that. Do you think some of that has now? Well, I think one of the reasons one of the reasons for foregrounding Sonia Gandhi at Baalu was precisely that because, you know, Rahul Gandhi has always stood for E, you know, restore the old glory of the Congress party and so on. And he actually never seemed to be very keen on. You know, alliances and compromise cannot be the face of united opposition. No, he cannot. And that is the whole reason why Sonia Gandhi has been pushed forward because she has. She is traditionally associated with consensus building with coalition politics. Remember, she ran a very successful coalition because we are leaving this debate on a cliffhanger. We will have yet another debate when those those emotive issue much clearer both from the BJP. Last word you gave last word. I think I should get all right. Fine. But of course, when you talk about NDA, N is still there. U has vanished. OK, number one and number Sorry. In what form does exist? Our name is intact. Our name is intact. It has not gone anywhere. And where is U and when? Rtg, You know just when you asked rtg that is Rahul Ghani is going to be the face of this alliance. She said no and she said. Why not? So this shows the clarity, equality and the I you not want to become. I think your point has been made. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for joining us. We will have another debate once those emotive issues of the big election driving narrative is also out for the moment India, India and war That is the third force which a spoke about what will happen. We will know there are about nine odd months left, stopping for a short break on the big fight. But more exclusive interviews up. Welcome back. So the opposition has a new name. But is that enough to beat the ND A which is an old name? It's another thing that it's only B JP, which is a predominant player. And there are other small, very small parties also some that do not have representation. Also, let me ask this question of Mr Prakash Jabri, top leader of the party. A party. Mr Jabri, do you fear that the B JP is version of the ND A. You may be celebrating 25 years of its existence, but this is not the same ND a. This is not the end year of 1998. See, uh, this always happens in any kind of combinations. The idea is remains the same. Those who agree join those who don't agree they live and this is a natural process because it is not one party, it is the combination of various parties. They have their ideology, they have their programme. But there is common platform and there is common purpose for which, uh people join. And sometimes if that or something happens in their party it it they went, they go out. So that is not the issue issue is why India has succeeded and why efforts of opposition parties are not going to succeed. Let us see first is that you have to be complimenting each other in West Bengal, how they will complement each other they are at and their only month of energy is powerful. But Communist and Congress have also big stakes in that state, and they can't have a complimentary nature. They can't adjust and therefore it's impossible. Punjab Congress and Amami Party are the main rivals. We also, though we are winning all the seven and this time also with all the seven parliament seats. But Congress is also a force. But how they will adjust. I don't know because why? The party will give three or two or three seats to Congress. I don't see this happening. So there is no complementation part. If we must be able to be useful to other parties and other parties must be useful to us in the area where we are not strong. Then only alliances mature the work. And that is the reason complimentary so that complementation is not there in the opposition ranks. And therefore they in Kerala, how they will come together. It is they are the main two rivals. Uh, I'm sure you remember the very famous speech in Parliament of Mr Mon Mahajan, where he highlighted all the, uh, all the various, uh, contradictions of Indian democracy in Parliament, where he said that that was not about India, where he said, and he the you remember what incident I'm talking about? No. Yes, yes. About when they visited the China as a delegation under the leadership of, uh, who was the law minister at that time. So he described it that Chinese asked us, uh, introduce yourself to promote margin said I'm promote Maan. I represent B JP, the largest party in the parliament. Then the other parties also people representatives. They said he's number two. Number three, number four, number five And then it was I'm the leader of this delegation and I'm alone. I don't I I Although we are not only minority, we are I'm alone in the Parliament of 105 140. So and I'm in the Contra. This was contradiction of democratic welfare. Yeah, but my point is that has happened in India. I have seen this in the past. The point that promote margin was but they see they did not contest election that time also as a united front. They fought it separately and later they came together. Ok, so there is a basic difference for pre poll alliance. You required to be complementing each other and you must have some influence in other areas where the other party gets benefit and other party must have influence in your area where you benefit. This is not the case. Yes, OK, thank you very much, Mr Jab. And I'll be interested to see how this contradiction will will be managed by the erstwhile UP a now known as IN DIA. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Thank you. Thank you. We have with us former Finance Minister and top leader of the Congress Party. Mr Pram. Thank you very much, Mr Chiam, for joining us. You see, there was one reservation that was raised by members of the B JP. They said that, uh, the fact that you have had to come to an arrangement with a new name means that you yourself lost faith in the United Progressive Alliance. The name as well as what it did. It's a desperate argument. The UP A had a certain number of allies. Now, if the new alliance is much wider, much larger and new parties have joined the alliance, it is but natural that there will be a new name. For example, in 1996 we had a coalition called a United Front. In 2004, we had a coalition called United Progressive Alliance. So I don't think, uh, anything turns on the fact that we have coined a new name. You think, Mr Chiam, that there will be a conversation around uh uh juxtaposing two images. One is that, uh, a UP a ended to create a new alliance, uh, juxtaposed with the fact that the ND a is celebrating 25 years of its existence. I mean, it's another thing that many of the earth while ND alliance partners are now in IN DIA Well, the ND a could expand even to 100 parties. The the alleged 36 parties, many of them have no representation in parliament. Many of them may have only one member. What stops them from expanding their alliance even to unregistered political parties. The number doesn't matter. What matters is the quality of the party, its footprint and the leader of the party. You see the opposition? Much of what the opposition wants to do is a one on one contest that is, for one BJ P or ND a candidate. There should be a united opposition candidate, right, so that there is there is no split of votes. Now, if you look at the results of 2019 and I have some data right here the on 190 seats there was a direct one on on one contest between the Congress and the B JP the strike rate of the B JP there on these one on one contest was 92% and the Congresses was 8%. So if the purpose is a one on one contest, then uh, 2019 does not paint a very rosy picture. For particularly your party. We are not repeating an election of 2019. The B JP F 2019 is not the B JP of 2024. Nor is the Congress of 2019, the Congress of 2024. If you freeze the 40 percentages and the victories in a particular year like you have chosen 2019, if you freeze it, which means the B GP can never be defeated in this country. For the rest of your life and your Children's life, the B GP will rule the country. That's not how electoral politics works. Incumbent governments are thrown out, new governments take office, new parties take office. Therefore, don't go by the numbers of one election. They change dramatically from what is going to be that one agenda setting narrative of IN DIA which you hope will capture the imagination of the people. It will happen. The next meeting is in Mumbai. Now that we have finalised the name and the decision to have an executive committee and a secretariat, the next step will. The next step will be logically and naturally. The next step will be to decide upon the content of the programme that the Allies will reject to the people. And then there will be another step and another step. Eventually there will be a manifesto. Therefore, I don't think everything can be stitched together in one meeting. Clearly the buzzes that we have made significant progress in Patna. We have made significant progress between Patna and be. And you will find that there is significant notable progress before we reach Mumbai and thereafter therefore, there will be a narrative which will be built and to to the people. Right, Mr Chiam? Many Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you.
