Hello and welcome. You're watching the big fight to show that is younger. 23. The oldest running debate you on Indian news television I'm Sankey. This whole week was the budget week budget 2023 year, and the forecast in the prediction, particularly within the Bharatiya Janata Party, is that this will propel them into an election years. The budget 2023 will have its impact in election 2024 when that happened or not, Has that been a prime consideration when this budget was drafted for May? Look at the capital expenditures. It has been increased. It is also being said that the new tax regime is going to swing things in favour of the the officially. If you speak to them, they will say, Don't look at these things. With the prison of elections, there are two totally different things. There is another major concern. At a time when there are global recession fears. Can this budget help India stay afloat and perhaps also be a shining star? How is this budget being politically perceived? Let's begin the political discussion for I have with me in the studio, Sharma Mohammed of the Congress Party Thank you very much for joining us. I think is the first time you're coming here. Post the city is also year political analysts and also an economist. And in full disclosure, I must say that your views tend to lean towards the government. Right. Okay. We also have rigid data. Is the spokesperson of the Trinamool congress joining us from Kolkata? Thank you very much. I want to start by asking you Rajat City, What you think works in this budget. I think the biggest message of this budget is continuity, led by the prime Minister's vision that, you know elections will come and go. Budget shouldn't be determined by elections. And this tendency of the politicians to always look for revenue expenditure right before the budget have this way every economic spread money throw money around instead of investing on the foundations of our of our growth that has been shunned away with continuities. The message peeling the future laying the foundations for the future of the country has been the message. And I think going forward will see spurring growth in jobs as well. We will see focus on futuristic sectors like it and artificial intelligence and I owe it and all of those sectors and also the start of sector which will get continue to getting continue to get support from the government that is needed. Along with that. The middle class, which was which had its own set officials for the past few years not getting any changes in the in the tax slab structure that also has been Pinkard. Now to their admin, it's all in all well balanced. Essentially, budgeting is a zero sum game. Some sectors will game in. Some will lose its the out with which you balance this budget is what will give you good marks and and revise it considered a as a household defeat defined budget for our household expenditure. Also, we keep changing it, depending on any out liar event. Tomorrow, as the war escalates, your triple F, which is food, fuel and fertiliser, they will go off the roof. The same government will also have two provisions. Enough Alba room. If things code goes out, how do we account for it? What are the sectors eventually where you reduce the expenditure so it's a dynamic process. This budget is only the policy intent of the government which will keep changing over the doctor. Mohammad, See? Let's so he said one point about cap it. Now That is good. When your private investments are down, I agree with him. But what is the issue at this point, the biggest issue sank. It is The price rise is the unemployment. Now, you cap IX thing is not immediate. It will happen just like they said. They're gonna start smart cities. How many smart cities have come up? The question is none. Zilch. 2022 Farmer income double not happened. So, like you said, there are promises. Now I, as a person or people out there, would have wanted your petrol price and diesel prices to have gone down because you are buying 30% discounted oil from from Russia. That is what is happening. The Reliance Industries are refining it and exporting it. Why don't you give it back to the people? That is one. The other thing is that GST indirect tax, which is as we know. The Oxfam report said that 1% holds more than 50% of the wealth and the 50% of our people pay 64% of the whereas these people the which only play 3%. So my thing is that if the on all those 5% GST on food if it was made zero many things which had 18% like sharpeners pencils which education with Children, you put it down. All these are important things that the is controlled which you haven't And there is nothing much on health and farmers. That's the other one where I didn't see anything now. For example, Pradhan Man Tree Facile beam Johanna Last year 22 20 was 15,500 crores. This time it is 6 13,025 crores down by 12% The other one Rashtriya Chris She Vikas Usual 100 crore is this year crore and the most important after covert. What did we see? Men Rageh Mine Rageh which they criticised a lot work for the poor Very well during during covet and even after Kuwait, you know, it's still working very well. But what we see from 70 3000 crore has gone down the 60,000 crore. So this is what my thing is. It is all good to have a vision of K pax and all those are very good. But at this time India is reeling under unemployment price rise which you need to look into. And Monday the also the tax which I I want to put cannot establishment. You talked about that seven lock above seven. Lock up to seven, lock you only to pay tax. But the whole thing What you had is you had exemptions in Al. I see at exemptions with the rentals you had exemptions with the pension which she will not have so remembered. That is Indians don't have something or social security now that Social Security will go with this because when you go to the new regime, you don't get that. And the other thing is the new regime of this starting 22,020. Why doesn't the government give us the data on how many people have shifted from the old to the new that I come to you can You can perhaps explain and re about whatever Dr Mohammed has said. But Raju data Very interesting. Lehman Rageh was mentioned by Dr Mohamed and my question to you is on the Rural Employment Guarantee Act. The West Bengal government is in a state of war, I would say with the central government over the release of mine Rageh funds right. At a time like this, those funds have been the allocation has been reduced. Now, in all fairness, one must also acknowledge that last time while the budgeted amount was 73,000 crores, it was revised to 89,400 crores. But this time around, the budget it amount itself has gone down by 13,000 Force. I don't know how much it will be revised to, but an absolute terms. The budget estimate has been reduced. Do you think that the need for men Rageh is over on the ground recently left very blind about it. In India, 70% of India is rural and India is still and predominantly agricultural based country. And in both the sectors in mom, Grega as well as agriculture, there is no benefit in this budget. In Kistane, if you want to do something for the farmers, you could assist the MSP, but overlooked completely by giving this of ambush total above the effects and everything. This Hoga car range. But what are you doing now? What? 35 47 57 7 have a look into it. But what are you going in? 2023? And the man Leda, you revised for Only for people to survive Rural India, which makes of 17% of India's. And now you are saying except demanded basting. Its demand has gone but gives the demand has gone down for Mandela has to his employment. Have you given 16 Crow job There were pending for 40 years. Somebody's there are out in the government sector. So how will people sustained? It is the fundamental duty of the government to provide government jobs to use of this country. So there is nothing for the youth, nothing for the farmers, nothing from the minute this budget for a future state budget and it is only for the region by the Roget city. Your response first to Dr Sharma Mohamed. And he I think he speaks about the Monday got cut. She's talking about other issues as well noted. These points down a first point, which is the biggest elephant in the room is man Rika. So let me address that If you look at various analysis that have come around, man Riga The allocation has gone down But the trend line that the BJP government here has maintained that man Riga based allocation cannot be the foundational scheme of growing India. This is not aspirational scheme. This is not something that can be a makeshift solution. Is still a core of the core skill that those are don't go by the theoretical can classification of sectors. The government's intent shows what is court that the so it's essential for the well what has happened there seem. Look at man Drega. Between two growing cycles whenever the agricultural labour is free, they asked for jobs, man Riga jobs. And that is where where you provide these man nigga jobs. Essentially what has happened is and I worked with several state government sources, I can tell you that demand for men Riga Jobs has also condom number 1 20. Number two. What has happened is the other schemes which are in the rural areas. For example the judge, even scheme fives have to be laid down. Holds have to be dug in there. The allocation has gone up. It is the same agricultural labour which would be deployed there to do that same work. Then look at rural scheme by the way, who is going to build those houses he require. Mason's, which are based in the urban masons, are not going to vote a rural leaders to build those. So essentially you moving those labour and focusing them on building more productive asset instead of as you said in India, General, that's team has been You know, that focus has been shifted and diverted by, the prime minister said. That has to be tapering of this team eventually. Why the on 5% on this food? What about the patrol price in these of a A. R have the one last 10.7% is what they predict, isn't it the growth Now I am asking in the talks pointed know. But in the budget speech, it was seven that I question today. What my question is, when there is a recession predicted all over the world, how are they getting this figure is what my question is it another one of their fans going on? They they get this figured when the whole world is very by not asking you it. Now, my my question is, how are you so confident that this budget and the in your own admission. The fiscal prudence of this government will help you stay afloat or for for even better at a time when there is global recession. Fear. Right. So force things first is not be subject area of a fiscal policy of the government of India. GST belongs to the City Council. It's a federal police. I would request Dr Sam um Mohammed to request the Congress ruled states and their finance minister to raise this voice in the council. It is imprudent to talk about that coming in backing budget. It just does not make sense. That's point number one. Number two around. You know, you were talking about the growth numbers. Let me tell you, when you look at investments in the investment in tent of the government, you need to understand whatever priority areas where the money has is going into is flowing in. Do and what are the multiplier effects were going to have? We are multiple ways of spending, right. You could have spent it on on a scheme like man Drega, which will have very few multiplier effects as Dr Manda Montek Singh has also repeatedly mentioned that if you put it into any of the social sector and look at the multiplier effect. They're worse is the multiplayer infrastructure. It is always the multiplayer infrastructure which wins. Okay, so this is where you keep pressing the pedal on to the infrastructure. You will see results coming in. Terms of jobs in Quinn come in terms of growth and you will beat. And India's private consumption in economic services that it has gone up by 55%. That is a gigantic number. Even if the even. If our export slowed down because of the global turmoil, any we will stay afloat. Well, the money he says, has gone up. I don't see any demanded. The thing is, he said about the council, you know that 80% of the power is with the way they have done it is with the central government consensus happening there, you can definitely change. Put down the milk prices just at the budget by two. How are Children? Suppose a good nutrition. What about the portion that also has gone down when we are 101 out of 116 in the global hunger index and the where are we heading? I mean, what nothing. Women, nothing in the labour force we are below women participation the labour force. We are below Pakistan and the previous and Afghanistan government. Before the Taliban came in the the hunger index. We are 101 of the the prices the see. I'll go by one of the portion that she raised was around taxation. And you know the subsidy is not coming in the new tax switching. What the Finance Minister says here is that you know, the faculties of middle class is good enough to decide where to invest. What not to investment, you know. So far we have been incentivising that please go and invest in the and you will get budget. Leave it to the people. Let them the social it The security schemes have been lodged you all taxation. This is what you said. I'll give you 1.5 minutes and you everybody comes. And how do I answer this week? I'm looking at you. Okay. All right. See, what has happened is that you know there is a definite nudge that the old tax regime has to be eventually graduated out in the new and a simple attacks regime has to be the mainstay. It will be less on subsidies, less on all these, you know, frivolous schemes which a common man doesn't even know that you can avail benefits out of that video. Mornin behind Thuh. Exertion of thought these claims came into existence was to provide that social next to the No, sir. This was all Babu damn schemes the and the middle class have doing least have you not increased taxes? You Sorry. Despite it by the you should discuss the I think. Why? What in the very limiting line in the Congress around in the in that everybody was equally in everybody used to unequal money. What a glorious days. Why don't you get it back? Madam will get it. I know people, everybody. Why same. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so much. Joining us right now is Dr Montek Singh Ahluwalia, former deputy chairman of the Planning Commission, currently distinguished fellow centre for Social and Economic Progress. Thank you very much, Doctor Ahluwalia. For so for your impressions of union budget 2023. Well, now that the excitement about it has gone down and all the details have been looked at is a good time to sit back and look at the big picture, adding as far as big pictures concerned, Finance minister taxed on the right signal of sending a signal of return to fiscal normalcy despite friendly, there was a justification earlier for a very high fiscal deficit. As we start recovering, I think the world would be looking to whether we are getting back to normal siding. The decision to pitch the fiscal deficit in the current year, about half a percent below what it turned out to be. But what was the R E for 22 23 was the right decision and I hope that it will stick to it more important than the one year reduction. I think she gave an indication of what she proposes do in the next two years because let's face in. A one year correction was expected anyway because you know, when they recovery from the pandemic and the withdrawal of some of the major subsidies, especially they free food subsidy. Mitt was brought in specially during the pandemic. There was going to be a significant saving. A bad saving has Boyle has got reflected in the lower fiscal deficit. But our fiscal position is much more strain than that and it was necessary to give a signal that human reduce the fiscal deficit over the next two years, hopefully below for a half percent or so. That's gotta be tough because I think getting it damn to 5.9 in the current year was difficult enough. Getting it down below 4.5 in the next two years is going to be more difficult. Having should given the right signal and we have to see our budget will turn up. Most people asking the question is the government of India working towards fiscal responsibility, what come to the conclusion that it is so that part is good. The other thing, which I think is good, is then within expenditure. There's a focus on on capital investment. She had a trois that been many people will said the other areas we should push. But for my for my preference at this point, giving a thrust to capital investment in infrastructure is the right thing again. The critical thing is will get implemented. You know, we have many examples of budgets, will set the right direction, but then in implementation. Things don't work out the way they should, but that's something to be seen in the course of veal. As far as the budget is concerned, it's saying right thing, Dr Ahluwalia, use a implementation is equally important than allocation. What would you say about the track record? I think on the last 2 to 3 years there's no doubt that they be in a significant expansion. But you know, during a period when the economy is down and there's a push towards a fiscal stimulus, it's a little bit easier to get expansion gun Many of the many of the programmes that were being proposed when in the nature of welfare programmes it was easy to achieve the objective giving away grain free. That's relatively easy to do. I think it's certain areas, particularly in the roads. We have done a good job. I mean the infrastructure build up in the last year of porn. Years have been good, you know, and other areas we run into problems. Emmett, for example, in various ways, the bullet train was a major initiative, I mean originally even conceptualised in the previous government formally approved in the current government but actual implementation has been slower than expected because of the usual land acquisition province. That's just one example, something we need to be careful to see that what we say we're going to do actual against the You know, one question that have been meaning to ask you, Dr Ahluwalia, is the fact that India so far has not been affected as much as other nations are in in this global recession fears. Do you feel that this budget can help escape, or at least limit the damage that a global recession can cause? You think we're headed in the right? I think I think it's been premature to say and how we are faring because, let's face it, the global slowdown is expected in the 23 24 they just held at the IMF, saying that they're now projecting somewhat lower growth in the coming year than in the current year. So it's too early to tell. To say that we had escaped have been. What we are saying is that we are going to grow at now, I think is predicted at 6.5% which is a little more than what the IMF is projected, but we have to agency whether we achieved that six. So I think the how well we recover in the year 23 24 is not to be taken for granted just now. If you look at the current year Predator 23 there's no doubt that we grew well in the first half the year. What were expected to achieve for the year as a whole, given what is being done in the first half, implies that in the second half they were a slowdown. So I have seen various testaments that the expected growth in the second half of the current financial year, maybe less than 5%. So what the present projections are saying is that although we will enter the next year with the momentum which is below 5% we will be able to expand that to go to 6.5% now that 6.5% expansion is not going to be because being given a fiscal stimulus, it was compared to the previous year, they will actually be and not correcting. There would be a bit of fiscal contraction, but nevertheless we are hoping that we will do well now. One critical thing here is whether private investment will recover. There are reasons to believe that we have gone through a difficult time there. Some parking arc of interests and private investment was too early right now to judge when the private investment is real remark. In that sense, the push to the capital expenditure is a good thing because I think it will. It will create the right sort of stimulus in the rest of the system. And it has a lot of research which says that they multiply to like of expanded investment in infrastructure is greater than the multiplier of other expenditure. So if you take these things into account, I don't rule out that we might grow at 62%. But I think it would be premature to judge that we are through just because that's our projection. We are actually projecting a growth which is higher than the rest of the world is projecting for us now. It isn't the case that exports will make all the difference so far. Frankly, our performance on exports have been less than what I would have liked to see services exports of very well and That's great credit to the services industry, the heart tech industry and sore. But goods exports have been show, and other countries about the Vietnam and Indian better than India has so again make me some of what we are now focusing on ease of doing business, logistics, etcetera will help, but we have to wait and see. It's not a foregone conclusion. Thank you very much, Doctor Ahluwalia. Fair time. Thank you so much for joining us. We also have with us Anita Bhatia, deputy executive director of UN Coordination Partnerships Resources and Sustainability and Eat Obadiah. Thank you very much for your time. How do you view the Indian budget? So, first of all, I think it's really important to say that this looks like a really sound and sensible budget and which protects and Bill's India's very sound macroeconomic framework. And it's a budget which is going to help India to grow fast and keep inflation low. And it supports the economy in becoming one of the fastest growing in the world, which is something the the maps has already signalled. It's also very clearly a developmental patriot because the tackles priorities that are good for India in the long term, from the increased investment in infrastructure to youth power to farming to pharmaceuticals, from teachers to vaccinations. Now our interest into and women is always to look at budgets from agenda lens and to see one Is this doing for women? And how is it supporting women to really become a core and critical part of the path to economic recovery and to fulfilling the chiefs? So when we look at it from that lens, I see a couple of things that I think of work highlighting first. We like very much the emphasis on financial inclusion because there is a new scheme there to get women to save more into two year scheme, and we think that will be very helpful. Second, you know, we have been supporting as you when women, the Ministry of Women and Child Development to do more on gender responsive budgeting. So, you know, we have done some quick analysis of that, and I think what that shows is that the gender budgeting piece is actually now really taking hold in a way that reflects the hard work that you know, ministries and the UN system have been doing to support it. And what we know is that the gender analysis that we have been doing of the schemes of, you know, 15 ministries that didn't actually have gender budgets in the fast That's slowly beginning to change because three of the ministry's whom we have engaged with previously didn't have gender budgets, where we think it's important that they do now have jammed the budget. And that's ministry, home affairs, tourism in the Ministry of Petroleum and Natural. So we look at that and we look at how much of a link there is to SDG Target. So I think overall, we are happy with the push on the gender site. We'd like to see a force more being done because a while the capital expenditure increased will absolutely have domino effects on the economy and have domino effects for the welfare of women. There are areas where there's even more investment needed, for example, in social services because these education, health are, you know, investments for building up. For example, the nursing workforce have direct immediate impacts on the lives of women, or I thank you very much an ETA bhatia For those views that input Let's see if when? When budget revision happens, some of those views are accommodated. Thank you very much for joining us. My pleasure. So the man Rageh budget has been cut and the outlay for certain scheme specific to the agriculture sector have also been cut. But overall, many experts feel that for the rural sector, the budget is not all that bad. What? Fraley is the correct assessment or house? Would one look at what is there for rural India in this budget I have with me? Dr Ashok Gulati, Infosys Chair Professor, Agriculture at I C E R. Thank you very much, Doctor Gulati. First of all your views, Doctor Gulati, as far as rural India is concerned, does this budget have enough for rural India? While I would say there is a reorientation under support that is being given to orally, the including agriculture and the biggest cut has been in the film subsidy. There is a saving of about 90,000 crores there, that extra that was being given during the cove. It period has been removed so only five kilogrammes will be even know now free. So there is an ex saving of 90,000 crores. There on the fertiliser subsidy front. There is another 50,000 crore of saving because the global conditions have come to somewhere ingrates Now the energy and vocalise front men. Rageh also has been cut and roughly 30,000 crores and 1000 crores of late have been saved on that. Now this many people are hearing as a major cut in the rural allocations. I really don't consider that this is more a rationalisation of the subsidies. But what you see is a massive increase in the P M. A WASP and in rural budget bill. Early on the comm in front, there is a major increase Johanna and that is creating a sex that will create employment that will create demand for steel and cement and give a shelter and dignity with toilets and had the people. I think that's a big step forward in reorienting this subsidy Kaja to give a sort of an effect structure because I said the permanent effect. So that's something as commended Doctor Gulati. Let's talk about these things one by one man Rageh. First, the budget estimate for last year 22 23 was 73,000 crores. This has then revised 2. 89,400 crores in the revised estimate. Now this year in the budget estimate it is 60,000 crores, a straight drop of 13,000 groups. I am pretty sure that this may or may not be revised. We do not know, but what do you think? What do you make of this cut of ₹13,000 crore in the mine Rageh budget? You know, as the economy is opening up and now more or less fully open up, then you have to think of those programmes that can create more employment rather than one radar. When Reagan is the last, you know, fall back arrangement that if there is nothing in the system that can engage them than they fall back on Monday, that is what the basic premise of Mandrake A is. If you can devise programmes within the rural area for rural roads, rural infrastructure, rural markets and rural housing, and you look at the allocation that has given to Jan Shakti, especially the drinking water water. So you see a significant jump in the tunnel awas and jar Shakti. Those are the areas which are going to stay for ever inside creating permanent structures. And I think that is a much better option than the Mandrake. A type of progress, while that is correct. But Dr Gulati, don't you feel I mean, we spoke to a lot of mine, Rageh People who have been working in this field and got reports also from the ground. The need for a scheme like this in the dependence on a scheme like this has not really ended. So when the government says that you see, this is a demand based scheme and there is no demand on the ground, the reports suggest that first there will be no budget allocation. Then there will be no provision. Thus they will not be enough people applying for it. And that's it will give you an impression that there is no demand. And then you will. You will perhaps go for even smaller funds. So are deciding this. I ask, you know, starting this vicious cycle. But you are giving a narrative but perception. You have some of your This is what I have been forming. This is anti two and the rural and details are not subscribe into that. I am very, very happy that subsidies like food, fertiliser and men. Rageh are being rationalised to create a sets in the rural area which will stay there for decades, giving free drinking water, giving housing, giving toilets, giving rural roads. That's the need of the hour. And I would commend the Finance minister on that front that instead of giving remedies, it is creating real infrastructure and the economy, and that should create employment, which is much more productive. So my narrative is on different played from them. Mark, you are asking Sure are short. So, Dr Gulati, you say that something like a Monday gah must be used as a last resort as a fall of a question as a plan b R say, for instance, in a crisis and see, See the and see Yeah, in a crisis situation like covet where the budget was increased, how it should shatter really dip. That food subsidy works the public period rand tough dramatically. But now that it is new thing that that support that is required from the government, that period is over, particularly in rural India that now can stop this dependence. A wee a vessel of Yes, I think we turned one to create a culture where people keep getting free trains for nothing. Okay, We don't want that culture to develop in the economy. In fact, farmers have been complaining that because of the you know, mine, Rageh and this free d think that they have been giving there is never short in for them. People don't want to work on the field because you have to work hard on the farm. This is a permanent, you know discussion two point with the farmer actions the best would be fam can tell the Enrica activity on farmer land so that farmer pays ₹150 an ₹150 Government pays to MRE Ge but the system has to be organised that what can be done on the pharmacy and then the cost of production can come down and that will help curtail year inflation in the inflation in there. So just to recap, you say the PM awas Johanna and the increased outlay is going to create a propel growth in the rural sector. You've explained in great detail how apart from that what you see in this budget for the rural sector which will be great, which will work great, you know, like say, specifically for agriculture. Because large aggregation kitchen in the rural sector is the agriculture path. She has announced on new schemes that digital infrastructure for the agriculture sector has a whole the accelerator programme. Now the exact allocation start not yet clear now make sure will be spent on those some natural farming and all that. You know one thing we have to remember we have to make our valued change in the agriculture sector much more efficient. And today the digital economy where India has done excellent overall You look at the G 20 countries and India in the digital world That is our showcase. But it in the rural economy, Digitalisation has been lagging behind show putting that up a front as one of the big steps. I would count that as a pretty positive. But the allocations are not yet No, the thought process is there and I hope the money will be spent. Accelerator programme, that is where the innovations will take place is so I count us as major things. They focus on horticulture, which is a high value product that waste ages are highest. And if we can create you know, storage facilities. They have talked about cooperative at the cooperative level. Massive storage cap capacity is going to be created. If they can reduce the most farmers losses in the economy, that is a much better option than producing more and then getting lost in the value chain. So building up that have infrastructure, I would say, is a step in the right direction, pretty happy that to the direction in which it has moved in the agriculture site, instead of giving more refugees, they are trying to give more towards infrastructure of That's my only reservation has been that in the climate resolutely and agriculture, you know, climate change is knocking on her. Josh. If there is again a heatwave in March and if India loses five million tonnes of wheat, it will be the loss of 1000 crores. And the only answer to that is actually heavily investing in agriculture research to make our agriculture climate really it and that's where I think we need to double our expenditure on research and in which there is 9.7% increase in agriculture research and education, which is too little addiction, and that's where my worries are, I would sum it for the financial district. The because the long term competitiveness of agriculture and sustainability of agriculture will depend upon how we cope with emerging to suggest Dr Gulati. My final question would do them suggest the Finance Ministry to have a revised estimate or a revised outlay for agricultural research. As we go along, I would say minimum double it up because it's about 9500 extended to 20,000 straight away and the saving that you have made from fertiliser subsidy or from subsidy need to be put back within the agriculture sector. She has put back most of their safely and these new little things that have been announced when quite it part of that sailing also has been syphoned the way to, you know, railways and overall growth, construction in the economic and also containing the pistol deficit, which is fine. But this is a little you know of 9000 15, 20,000 roses not awake, some which will pay. This is the biggest return it can give to agriculture sustainability. Given the climate change, Dr Gulati, many Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for your views. so Budget 2020 three's here. We've all read about it. We have heard the speech. Now is the time to record that budget. And who waited to do that, then? The finance secretary of the country? Mr. Tina, thank you very much for joining us. You have through the course of your press conferences, told us why this budget is the way it is and what is right about, I thought will take the next few moments to ask you what many people are saying is wrong about the budget or may been done differently. And the first thing is, while there have been enhancements in the budget in some places, obviously the dynamics of the budget is increased somewhere. You left to decrease from somewhere. And the biggest bone of contention is the Mahatma Gandhi rural employment guarantee. So why is it that the budget has been decreased by ₹13,000 crore? So let me explain, see, the national Rural Employment Guarantee scheme is intended in its architecture. The way it's designed with the act makes it a demanding based scheme. So is he. Typically, government schemes are of two kinds summer entitlements, so every farmer is entitled to ₹6000 under the PM kissin. Then there are programmes where we create some asset. You build hospitals or you build clinics so you build schools. So they're the objective of the scheme is we will build 1000 of these things and then there is a budget for that. This the national rural employment guarantee is something a bit different. It's a demand based scheme. It neither has an output target in terms of assets to be created. Nor is it something that everybody gets automatically every It is something where if a person needs wage employment, they submit an application and they are employed so key to budgeting in. That's why budgeting for this scheme is very different from budgeting for other schemes. We are actually look an estimation of demand in other schemes. We are estimating what can be absorbed or how much we want to construct and how much that will cost, or we are estimating how many beneficiaries are available and how much they need to be paid. But in this scheme we have to actually estimate demand in terms of demand estimation. This year there are two schemes whose budgets have increased very substantially, which operating the same catchment area as the national rural employment guarantee, namely the PM, Awas, Johanna, Grameen and the judge even mission, which is the rural water supply mission. They also used typically the same kind of semi skilled unskilled labour that is used in the national rural employment Guarantee scheme. And therefore we expect that this approximately 40,000 crore extra of spending in the same areas as this keep will lead to reduced demand for wage employment under the rural employment because people will actually get productive employment in the other governments Cases point. The second point is the economy today is reviving and is probably at the level that it was in 19 2020 or better. Therefore, also, you know, the safety net aspect of the scheme, I think will be less salient this year than in the last 23 years. For this reason, also, there is likely to be a drop in demand. It is in line with that estimation that we have reduced the budget. However, it is a demand base scheme and if the demand materialises, we remain open. Why, while I agree with your assessment and you said that in your previous interviews. Also, a lot of people who are working for the man Rageh workers and reports from the ground which NDTV has spoken to people. They say that this is a vicious cycle. There will be less money. States are saying that the centre is not releasing money against the payments of an ongoing dispute with, say, the West Bengal government. Then, because there is no money, they will be no no job creation and thus you will get an impression. You will get an impression that there is no demand. I am. I'm I'm afraid there is another viewpoint on this is the opposite viewpoint as well. Since you brought it up, I am bringing in. I don't know if you saw there was a series of articles in North Government Journal in Indian Express about eight or nine months ago. I don't remember the exact time which reflected what was happening in one of the States again. I won't name the state. It is quite the opposite of what he was saying that if there is a budget, people were trying to estimate how much is available and create a number of beneficiaries exactly equal to what the budget was, including enrolling people who didn't need employment, getting their thumb impressions and actually getting them benefits. And after the DBT is taking back a portion of the benefits by the local panchayat officials, etcetera. So this can work both ways. This issue of availability of funds can also create demand where there is no demand. And I'm not saying this lightly. I am. We have internal reports, but I am giving you an external source which you can verify was not a government. So I think we have to have a balance here. We think we have estimated demand, but I will point to the fact that each of the last three years we have increased the budget at that demand. Materialises. So there is a cut, Yes, but that doesn't mean that it will not be so. This is. But then there are many other schemes where the budgets have been cut. As I told you, he have told us about the increase where all it hasn't I would want to talk about what was the rationale behind decreasing where it was decreased. So, for instance, the guarantee emergency credit line scheme for M S m's. The M S m e sector has still not revived by the government's own. Is that what your budget has gone down this year by from 15,000 crores to 14,100 a dip of 900 crores. The emergency Dan is not That is not something that in any way affect the M S m e. That is the infusion of money into a corpus Corpus is run by the National Credit Guarantee Trust Corporation. They estimate, based on the level of Baghdad's the amount of capital infusion they need. So we are giving them what they need to maintain the scheme so that this is not going to affect the beneficiary of the scheme in any manner. It is basically a capital adequacy calculation. It is something between us and the Carriage Guarantee Trust Corporation. I can assure you they are fully funded to meet the Finance Secretary, see many things related to the agriculture sector Also for instance, Pradhan Manti, Krish e ck Johanna The budget last year was 9 12,054 crores. This year it has been reduced. Why is that so? Yes, there are changes in individual schemes within the agriculture sector. But the thing that I would point out is that in the agriculture and allied activity sector as a whole, the budget has gone up. So there are schemes which are down and scheme which are up. But agricultural allied activities excluding the PM kissin programme has actually increased and this figure is reflected in the budget at a glance publicly available statement. I have a copy there on my show where it has actually gone up. However, the reason some people are seeing a decline is because in the P m Kisen programme there is a decline of approximately 7000 crores. Now why has this happened? We footnoted this in the fine print, but it is visible. It's in the public document. There was an updating of the beneficiary later based, because the programme is now, I think, four years old. So the comprehensive update of the beneficiary database. They found some cases of persons who had left who had become income taxpayers who are found in the beneficiary later base in more than one place. They're entitled to it only in one place. So the cleaning up of database, which was done has resulted in an approximately 10% reduction in the number of eligible names. So we continue to fund it fully for everybody who's eligible. And that is a saving that has come from a database reassessment. It's not a reduction in benefits to any allegiance. I continue with the reductions. The Ministry of Minority Affairs The budget to estimate for 22. 23 words 5020 crores for 23 24 3097 crores and the list goes on. For instance, the skill development for minorities. The budget was 4 91 crores. It was then in 23 20 for it has been reduced to 64 crores in respect of the Ministry of Minority Affairs. What you're saying is factually correct. I don't dispute those numbers. The Ministry of Minority Affairs is going through restructuring and rationalisation of the schemes relating to its all the schemes of the ministry. So they are in the middle of that rationalisation and they have indicated a requirement for existing schemes in the numbers that you have indicated. Our impression is that when they finished this rationalisation, they are actually re jigging some of the entitlements, moving some of the changing, the nature of the scholarship there a number of things they're doing. I'm not fully familiar. Indication I have is that when they have finished with the rationalisation, they'll come back to us with revised requirement under the new structure of schemes that you are saying that in a revised estimate this may grow, this may grow and this will what I can say. This is the based on the quest we have received from Okay, let's talk about food subsidy in a very important scheme, which was important. It, I believe, still continues. Budget 2022 23 to lock six crores reduced to 1 97,350 crores. Do feel the problem is over because of which you have decreased. The this decree in subsidy it again in the food subsidy to the decrease has no effect whatsoever on the beneficiary of consumer. This is between us, the food Corporation and the procurement agencies. One of the reasons for the decline is the interest burden on the food corporation has gone down because we paid off a number of their old of budget borrowings so the food subsidy is an amalgam of the difference between MSP cost of transportation interest costs worn by the so it's an amalgam of many factors. This merely reflects a reduction in some of those cost, particularly in because we have discharged many of their old of budget bowing Short a department for agriculture and farmers welfare last year. One lakh 24,000 this year one lakh 15,001 and explain If you remove the PM kiss on it increases with the P M K Sundays at marginal and then the big to health and education for the National Health Mission. It was 37,165 crores. This year it is 36,700. Again, you are not looking at the health budget. You're looking at a component of the health budget. The aggregate health budget has increased. Now, if you can choose individual schemes within the budget, some will go up and some will go down each year. The aggregate help budget is up by about 1000. Sure, Mr Finance Secretary, thank you so much for your times.
