the last few years, we've all seen the building up of the menstrual movement of women finally letting go of the black bag that every pharmacist would wrap their packet of sanitary napkins in the health challenges they face every month of men finally making an attempt, probably for the first time, to understand that understand the demand for mens to leave menstrual leave has many layers to it and, most importantly, the need to normalise the conversation around how women are expected to do it all and often not complain about it. Many feel that removing stigma and shame that accompanies menstruation and also menopause would make everything, including paid work much easier and also help women to become more productive. But some feel it would be a barrier to equal opportunities. Remember for India, shrinking female labour force participation, especially among educated women, has been a matter of a big concern. Now, Minister for Women and Child Development with Iran has made an important point opposing the idea of mens to leave, saying that menstruation is a national part of life and should be treated as a handicap requiring special leave provisions. She has warned that menstrual leave could lead to discrimination against women in the workforce and that one must not propose issues where women are denied equal opportunities. Now there are two sides to this debate, and every woman's menstrual journey is different. But all women have to fight a lot harder then for equal pay and responsibilities, even as they perform disproportionate duties when it comes to child bearing and caregiving. So is the idea of mens to leave a workplace reform or a barrier to equality. That is what we are discussing tonight we have with us Congress, Emily Na E. Mr. E has been fighting to bring men's to a leave as a policy. We also have founder and CEO of people advisory, which is which is, uh, you know, N HR firm. And we also have BDA AAA social activist joining us on this debate. Uh, Ms Ari, you know, starting with you, uh, you know, So both sides have very strong debates, appoints arguments on this side, But even this even the Supreme Court observed, while dismissing the petition on maternity leave, that if such leave is granted, employers may not recruit women. And, uh, you know, this may also lead to stereotypes of women being weak, and many may not want to leave that door open for discrimination after all that we have achieved. So what? Help us understand the divisions, even amongst women when it comes to, um, you know, uh, menstrual leave, See, First and foremost, we must accept that menstrual pain period pains are very severe with some women and P MS is something that every woman goes through just before the periods and during the period. That is something most of most women go through from a very young age, we have been told, taught, educated, uh, almost scolded that this is a shame. So in that shame, silence is accepted. Silence is what everybody tells you to do now. A statement made by the minister, Smriti Irani, is not an educated statement te telling that women might lose out on that equal opportunity. And that is exactly why we have gender policies. That is why we started with gender budgeting, and all of this is to increase the workforce. And like you mentioned, women's workforce is coming down. Because of all of these reasons, men still leave not being there. Also a reason now, when you say And when the Supreme Court judge says that women will lose out, that women will not be able to get those opportunities. Is he not pandering to the entire patriarchal, misogynistic, sexist, stereotypical attitude that is already there world over people and companies are looking at giving, uh, periodly look at Japan 1947 1947. We are talking about it just now, and also hemming and coin. They began to give that leave. Almost most Asian countries are looking at giving period leave. What is wrong in giving that leave? And why is it that companies that speak of so much of progress are unable to work around this? To say that there are some women who want to get through with disorders that might come as a result of menstruation? Nobody says menstruation is a disorder, No, but some kind of disorders that some or most often most women face need to be considered, and that is not a problem. Nobody loses out. So does my country want all the women to stay back home because they refuse to give some of these holidays based on economics based on stereotypical understanding based on patriarchal misogyny and sexist attitudes. That is absolutely wrong because we are talking of the largest population in the world just next to China. Let me ask this question, Mr. You know, like MA has been pointing out. Young girls are often told that, uh, you know, this is part of life, but, uh, you know, why should that be? You know, we know that 20% of according to medical statistics suffer from pain, which can be called really severe, and 30% of them actually have menopausal symptoms. Also, so suffering in silence is clearly not a solution. How do companies look at this? Because, you know, if maybe one or two days of menstrual leave a month for every woman is may not be too much. And it could be one good way of showing young women that their employer cares, isn't it? Well, you know, I, I do recognise that I'm possibly the only guy on a on a panel of all women and the emotion and politics of the subject notwithstanding, uh, let me also caveat that you know, you you you know, I was responding as a person who brought maternity leave for six months you know, almost 14 years before it became law, someone who brought in surrogacy leave all kinds of leave and practises for women. And yet I think this is an issue which is now being overdone. Right? So let me stick my neck out. There is emotion. There is politics. There is the chance of accusation of many words that can be thrown. But you have to see it in the context that is, this the biggest issue you see, leaves like this make a lot of sense when leave norms and practises were very conservative. The good news has been over the last four or five years, many, many companies have been very liberal with leave. There's been an absolute perestroika in leave thinking, if I may say so, right, So and, uh, during covid and after I think the leave regime has become very liberal. The number of leave unlimited medical leave in many companies and there's nothing that stops a company from even doing this. But you know, I my personal view is that Is this something which should be the norm, the practise, who decides that there is menstrual pain? Is there an issue of abuse and very importantly, let's remember that you know, whether you are in the army, whether you're in the police, whether you're a crew in the on the airlines, you know, for years you know you're going to be, uh, you've been doing this. Will it actually be something which will be very different? I don't know. We are also talking about gender neutral workplaces. Let's not also throw the baby out with the bath water because there will be an issue about, you know, uh, vampire availability or or resource availability. And at the end of the day, you know, where will this end? I mean today. It's menstrual leave tomorrow. It's something else. My worry, actually, as an HR thinker as an HR practitioner, is you know, we must be very cautious. We want to make it a gender neutral and idly a progressive, more women embracing workplaces. But the more you do things which appear to be giving them a special altar to stand on, there is going to be, and that's my worry. There is going to be a reaction by recruiting companies by recruiting managers, and the fact of the matter is that you know, you can't have 24 days extra of leave. Six days of extra leave. You know, at the end of the day, it's a choice that you make. When you come into a company, you can't also say I want to have everything different. But I want to be equal with everyone else. I think there is a There is a sense of caution that I would have. Would you like to respond to that? Because, you know, while we talk about a rights based approach, there are many who still question, you know, the biological need for menstrual leave. So of course you know there is. There is there is a big gap here. So how do you address an argument like you will lose out on equal opportunities the minute you talk about something like menstrual leave? Is that addressed to me? A. Would you like to respond to Mr Yeah, I would like to respond first and foremost. This is not a biology that I have a choice about. This is my biology. And without this biology, there is not going to be any further population that will come. Yeah, That said, Now you're saying that I cannot give those people. We are not somebody outsiders. We are part of the family, the community and the country. We have a certain job biologically, and I call it a job. It is not something that we have desired or dreamed or even wished for, and this job cannot be performed by anybody else. Maybe there are scientific whatevers that you might get that said you spoke about gender, gender neutral spaces, work spaces. Now, those gender neutral workspaces cannot be gender neutral ever. You're trying to bring about certain situations only that probably could be gender neutral. The moment you talk about a gender neutral space, a lot of other things can be thrown out of the window, including your response that she's raising a very important point. Because, like I said, there is disproportionate amount of responsibilities on women, you know, from child bearing to caregiving. So, uh, would you you know, this is a country that celebrates fertility. So, you know, how do we not have a rights based approach to menstrual leave? Did I respond to that? Yes, Mr Cha, please. So you know my thing is that, you know, there's a lot of emotion. You know you can't actually start contesting because it becomes almost Oh, Without this, nothing will happen. You know, we are so unique. We are. You know, at the end of the day, workplace is also a matter of choice. You ask people who are in the army. The government has started enrolling women at ND A. Are you going to say you will be, uh, allowed to kind of not train for two days every month? Are you going to tell the crew which flies airlines across that your entire rostering programme will keep changing? See, Please understand. At the end of the day, you make choices and at the end of the day, especially if they are corporate organisation, they make more meaningful choices. You know, at the end of the day, we do want at least that's my view. We would like people to be actually more respecting of merit. But the larger issue, if you ask me, is really where is the unconscious bias of discriminating against women that has to end but overdo all this and trying to be patriarch. I mean, to me, it's also patronising how many people actually suffer this and you will make it an across the board exercise and say everyone will get three days. I will have to just cut you short here. We also have Mr Ninong, eh? Joining us? He is an M from Arunachal Pradesh, former MP. And I remember in 2017 Mr EE had brought this private members bill in the parliament. Mr. E, you know, thank you so much for joining us. You know, in this bill, you said that companies need to have safe resting places for women. You wanted hygiene mat of college, going girls school, going girls to be discussed and sold. But when you raised it in the Arunachal Pradesh assembly, some said that you were talking about dirty things and that the assembly is a holy place and that you should talk to women's organisations for it. Still, you know, tell me, how did such resistance not affect your pursuit? And why do you think men to leave is important for women? Naar, I've just heard that uh uh Mr J has also said it's true. Uh, this issue is, uh it depends from place to place from area to area. Say like, uh I was just seeing it that, uh, even in European countries or even in, uh, Japan or in South Korea or Taiwan. Also, you know, these provisions were there. In fact, even in India, down in Ker, in some schools, uh, these provisions were there and even in, Uh uh, this, uh, Bihar. There is a special leave for women, but of course, they don't call it the aur and leave. They call it, uh, you know, of course, Like they said that, uh, it is a kind of a taboo. So when they say that it's a kind of a taboo, it is the, You know, people like to keep the word out of it. So in this, in the presentation I had given in parliament or even in assembly, it was just that Children, young girls, they really have some problems during this menstruation period. So I had taken up this even in the questionnaire through Madam Meria Gandhi or even Mr Gwar was the, uh, you know, woman and child. At that time also, I had taken it up and they said that no, right. I'm really sorry. I have to cut you short, but we are really short of time. So that was our panel. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr Jan. Thank you, Mr Ad for joining us. Clearly, this is one debate that needs much more time and nuance to it. That's all we have for you. Thank you so much and keep watching us for more news and updates.
