good evening and welcome throughout the day. We have been looking at the union budget. Is it a budget for everyone? What are the big highlights? Well, there's a big cap expend. There is a huge investment in our green transition. There's a big change. If you wanted to be a change as far as taxes concerned, personal income tax what is that? All means will be looking at all of those details over the next one will be looking at the political fallout as well. Remember, this is the last big budget of the government ahead of next year's general elections. And let me introduce our first two guests tonight. We have Mr Amitabh Kant, India's Sherpa for the G 20. Also Dr Amit Mitra, advisor to the West Bengal Chief Minister and wonderful to have both of you on the programme with us, Amitabh Kant wanted to begin by asking you. I think many were wondering whether this way end up being a populist budget because it is the last big budget ahead of the general elections, and it actually turned out to be quite the opposite of that very much focused on looking at growth up and and obviously then therefore generating employment, etc. Tell us more about that. In terms of its vision. Is the government therefore looking at a more long term approach on getting India's growth back back on track? Did he ever This budget is all about good governance being good politics it. This budget really demonstrates that the government wants to take India on a long term trajectory of growth, largely because of several features in the budget. One is that it leaves a lot of cash in the hands of individuals through direct taxes, and that that means that you are trying to drive consumption and when you drive consumption in the economy, you're trying to push a demand and demand interns will lead to greater amount of capacity. Utilisation and capacity utilisation would lead to fresh investments in your economy and therefore you will stimulate the overture cycle of private sector investment in the economy. The second is a very huge cap ex third year in a row and this year by a whopping 33%. So you are trying to build up a new India in terms of infrastructure, a new airports, 50 new airports, two point for lock on railways nine times more than the outlet. It was in 2013, 14, a huge amount of outlets for roads. So you are building a completely new India there. And the third key thing to my mind, is a huge focus on going digital across every sector and going green, which is very, very important if India is to sustain its growth in an environmentally friendly manner and this very critical because border tax will set in in 2026 from Europe, and if you want to export, you need to go green in a very big way. But I think the remarkable feature of this budget is really a huge focus on cutting edge technology in every single sector, whether it's electric mobility, green hydrogen battery storage, pump storage, all these cutting or, you know, three cents of excellence for artificial intelligence or 100 labs for five G. It sounds great. It has massive amount of technological bring. I just want to ask Dr Amit Mitra that what Amitabh Kant is saying in what in what the finance minister says actually sounds pretty terrific, you know, in terms of its aims and and and what they have laid out. So what is your primary criticism of the budget doctor? Mr. I think it's very important that in some money fought an election and had a grassroots experience. They would see the world very differently in a more balanced manner than what I just heard. Let me start by saying what in the current that a government is facing today you have approximately 3.7 crores. That's 37 million people unemployed, and you have 1.2 crores that 12 million people were given up searching for a job. Now you multiply that by five dependence per person you're talking by humongous number of people were distressed. Families are distressed. A budget will immediately try to address that. Now that I didn't even hear of the our employment during the discuss, let me go to the second dish. Where do they fall back when they don't ever job, they fall back on 100 days work that has been the major development of India for the last decade. What has happened to that? The budget from 89,000 crores, 89,400 crores touch the money for the 100 days work down to 60,000 troops that these are the poorest people. Food for livelihood and for Survivor, take advantage of the 100 days work search. What has happened to inflation? How does it affect UNMEE? Relatively, it affects the poor people in mind constituencies that have dealt with. Okay, now take for example, milk 8.51% increased if spices 20%. So that's the and the last point. And make on this is there is a 90% of employment given in this country by the unorganised sector. They produce maybe between 40 to 50% of GDP. Not a single word on that, and they don't have helped. They don't have Social Security, though, not education. So what is interesting is a budget would first try to handle the immediate issue, balance it by angling a long term gestation period issue show which funds from capital investment. I get the point that you're yo yo saying amitabh card the key word over their unemployment Has anyone has enough been done to address there? So, Vishnu, how do you create jobs in an economy do do that by distributing poverty, you need to stimulate growth in an economy. You need to put India on a high trajectory growth over a long period of time. How do you create jobs by putting resources into capital investments, the more it has a huge multiplier impact and the more if you're putting in 10 lakh crore in infrastructure, the cap it spend will be enormous. And then you are asking the states to utilise the 1.3 lakh crore in again in capital investment during the next one year. So the impact will be enormous in terms of job creation. And in addition to all this, look at the amount of focus in terms of agriculture in terms of animal husbandry in terms of fisheries, in terms of creating completely new skilling in a vast range of new areas of growth. So my view is very clear that jobs will come if India grows. Jobs will come if India we are able to create a new infrastructure in India jobs, good quality jobs will come. If you do good urbanisation in India, good jobs will come if you drive tourism in India. All that is a very major focus and emphasis in today's budget. Doctor, when you say that in the opposition, saying that this is not a pro people budget in that sense, in pro poor in particular. But let's say you look at the tax slabs today and the options that people have been given in terms of these tax exemptions, etcetera. You don't think that that is something the salaried class would welcome? No, I think salaried class with welcome and remember needy that you know of any are going from five lakh to seven locks. Inflationary factors eat up part of this. But let me come back to this question. How do you create jobs? Everybody? Those who understand Bakr economics and have studied macroeconomics they know the idea is to put it money into the hands of the people. Immediate. This is what the whole world is too. Parallel e you take a long term gestation period which takes time for infrastructure and other things that's was 2nd. 3rd is private sector. Then, according to this government, you want the private sector to come in and your crowd in the the new term they have discovered what did they find in the private sector? 70% capacity utilisation between They're not going to buy new plant, new machinery. So you have came Z and stimulation on one side, which is by making money into the hands of the people. Which USA UK and Japan Germany. You name it. Everybody has. But we don't follow the Ronald Reagan model for the supply size. What problem is that? Creates is this five crore. People wait while we hear lectures of this will happen and that will happen. You have to row boat that walk on both feet. This budget mrs that opportunity of helping those who need to come back into the market. Those who is looking for jobs come back into the market. 100 days work Come back into the market. You do a long term process and the private sector's waiting. Not a single businessman inner show for any other television show today said they can invest. They haven't invested last year. Quiet on it. You gotta important point, Dr Mitra, and let me add Wish to let me. And they took the tax cut given last year that went into their profits. Shots in the middle of middle other pandemic. Highest profit in four years was made in India because simply transferred into the books that never became profit, that that's not what you're looking for. You're looking for stimulation, macro economic stimulation followed by in the next step, followed by Animal Spirit, which only spending excess demand. So all the business people on your show that say there is no access to what is the point of this big talk about the get Amitabh cards in on this two points? Firstly, 100 days of work, the Mine Rageh scheme. The point that's been mentioned is that which Doctor Mitra looted two is that a that amount has actually gone down. Be even if you look at over the last few years of it having gone up. The problem which is arisen, is that inflation has kicked in and therefore the actual gain to people who need the amount allotted by men. Rageh. It's become less significant. Number one that still has an important scheme has enough been done to actually sustain it. And number two, the larger issue, which he says it has this government balanced. It's futuristic vision of what India needs to be with this reality, where people are still hungry. Salami respond to this Vishnu. I have the greatest regard for Mr Mitra, but I would back to greatly differ from him. He is advocating similar philosophy, as many advanced countries are done during the coverage period. Created a lot of liquidity and that has led to inflation, and that has impacted the common citizens across the world. You've seen the tightening of the dollar in United States, the sucking out of the liquidity that had happened. It has led to huge amount of inflation and that has impacted global economy in the long run. So it never make the mistake again of what has been done in the past. It's very, very important to put liquidity into the hands of people to tax breaks which has been done. And throughout this covet period, we supported over 800 million people by putting resources directly into the bank account of providing food to them. Nowhere in the world was this done okay. And secondly, my belief is bye bye. Belief is that the the real great instrument for driving jobs, etcetera, is through actual capital investments. The capital investment creates the best quality. Jobs is not mine, Rageh. It's capital investments, but that they will have a multiplier impact on your economy. You're not thinking of today or tomorrow. You're drinking of a three decade period, a long term vision of taking India to be a developed economy by 2047. You can't do this by men. Reagan is that you need to do this last capital also, let me say 30 unjust interrupting because on the issue of capital also what what the government had budgeted last year. That target has not been entirely met also, and yet it's gone up by 33% this year. So I think the question is, is that busy behaviour to utilise this money? Know Nam, I am absolutely sure that the government will utilise it. This requires a lot of hard work. This requires a lot of projects structuring. This requires a lar of process of due diligence, land acquisitions, etcetera, putting all the approvals in place. But I'm quite sure that the government will ensure that this money is totally spent. But if you want to take India on the growth trajectory, then this is the way forward. It's not the man Rageh route forward. I think we should absolutely be clear that we want to create good quality jobs for up citizens of India, not poor quality jobs. And that would require in in investment also an urbanisation that will also require investment in travel and tourist Dr. Meacham adjuster Mr. I think I think one more factor we talk about our money. What is fascinating is that this year our import, our imports from China has hit some bread billion US dollars. Now we have friction with China and the borders. But we have massive imports from China. What are the importing? The importing electronic products were voting electrical products. All the fundamentals chips in our economy. Now, question is, how do you become art Marin? Nervous when you're China? I didn't hear a work in the budget on how to manage this in the middle of the conflict with China, including Goldman Nights, Government 21. We were doing that by the way, Chinese economy is gonna go over row by 5% which means that approximately I made an estimate to 18 $3 trillion economy going by 5% would be almost four times that of our 6.5% growth. Will be careful occur. But I did not hear a word in the budget. Only out, Monir. A big talk, all kinds of nice talk. But where is it that weaken job? Stand terribly. Show Mr Can't remember. You want to take on that point above. Above the add manure barta points that that Doctor Mitra is making And also, um in, um trying to take off on a larger point from there that there is a concern that India's exports are also hit at the moment the global economy is facing these headwinds the depreciation of the rupee high inflation How do we deal with all those factors As we look to increase growth, Salome first respond to Mr Mitra on that point because we are in a globalised economy. Our exports grew last year overall. In fact, they grew in a big way. There is an import intensity to exports. You are integral part of global value chains. If you do not import, you can export many products. You seen my mobile Ex Manufacturing exports have grown enormously, but they have an import component. You know, different parts of a mobile, a manufactured in different parts of the world and same thing with capital goods. X I don't. To my mind, it's not the essential imports which are a worry. The issues about non essential imports which would be manufactured in India. And I think the government has taken a series of measures both through tariff and both and through production, Lincoln Centre schemes to drive manufacturing in India. Much of this result, you'll start seeing as you're seeing an electronic and mobile man factoring you'll start seeing in many other areas of growth and do in due course them. Other question that you asked me was about headwinds across the world. Except, yes, there are headwinds. But every crisis, to my mind, is an opportunity. What the budget has done is, despite several crisis in the world, is to look at opportunities that this is the time to do energy. Try position. This is a time to go for green hydrogen. This is a time to really use to push digitisation in the economy, which India's done. There has been enormous breakthrough ts we do about 11. It's fast digital payments compared to 11 x more than what Europe and America does. We do forex more than China. These are huge achievements. India should be proud about these achievements, Dr Mitra were Are you being unnecessarily pessimistic? I take the point that you're saying about the need to look after those who are the most needy. But each of the points that Amitabh speaks about whether it's digitisation of the economy, the transition to a green economy, a specific areas of excellence for example the service services sector that you should be in prison. I'll give you an example. Practical example. TCS Starter Consulting service number one IT company in India is employing right now in West Bengal 55,000 people in Kolkata. People don't know that. Number two I was very saddened when I heard that m s any questions? What the probably people do not noise. A small and medium enterprises lending is done at the state level banking committees, of which I cheque. We have we're number one in India In terms of em sm lending from the state level was also very unhappy that the budget doctor would sng self help groups of women 98% women who pay back very well when we when our government came to officer of one lakh say no. But But But Dr Mitra that were on one answering Dr Mitra respectfully. And I am sure you, you know you've got lots of points are making but what Amitabh Kant speaks about, whether it is that green transition when it is digitisation and all those are the data points on these aspects of the budget that we need to be praising, irrespective of political or party of the least, let me submit to you that budget has many confidence to end. And who can disagree that we need a hydrogen nickel? Who, which which person and disagree? Question is one of prioritisation. It's a zero sum game, You ₹100. You have to allocate it in a balanced manner. All I am saying is you do Kensi in stimulation back or economics one. Oh, one paralleling you do massive amount of investment process, which will take time. You have a balance in that What I find this budget is a row or abad, which says you do this, which represented very well by Mr Khan and his conversation today I am saying, let's go to the grassroots level, Balanced the process. Guess very good A new transition, by the way, you will need $4 trillion a year for the transition in the world. According to conservatively speaking for a year. Transition is not something Doctor Khan who delighted last government from you respond to that. Do we have that four trillion to make miss Know what wish? Know what grass? What grassroot transformation are we talking about? I I have you know, I was a small part of the aspirational district programme where we transform 112 district where West Bengal did not even participate. And today the budget has announced the 500 aspirational blocks which is a hard core grassroot transformational programme. Not this budget is not political. This budget is not populist. It's up transformational budget. It makes a paradigm shift in a growth strategy. It's a budget for building a new India of tomorrow. All right, I must say that you know, these are very nice conversations I would suggest to Mr can go and get elected understand the grass roots level because they feel and that what do for you is perhaps this conversation will become little different. Life submission today is balance the process immediate. You need five crore people 50 lakh people to be saved from from the terrible all relations. Okay, gentlemen, let's leave it. Let's leave it over there. I don't think Amitabh has any intention of of being elected. I think he knocks at a different vish Know and sure you can. No, no, you can. You can play a role in the development of a country in different way way elected, and I suspect that Dr Mitra would would accept that it is well, but I think it's I I think it's an unfair comment. OK, I I Let's leave it over there. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I I think it's It's winner. It's It's been a wonderful sort of conversation over there, looking at various aspects of models of development.
