New Delhi:
Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit has made it clear that now that theCommonwealth Games are over, allegations of corruption will be probedon the specific orders of the Prime Minister.
In an exclusive interview to NDTV, she said that all those guilty ofcorruption must be punished as that is something the government owes tothe people.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:Vikram Chandra: At this time, what is going through your mind? All's well that ends well?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, certainly. That's the first phrase that comes to the mind but I'm feeling relaxed after almost years.
Vikram Chandra: Are you also relieved because a lot of things could have gone wrong that did not. Take for example terror strike. There were no terror strike, no dengue outbreak, no stadium collapsing. Are you relieved as well?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, terribly so. Because everybody was just believing that nothing would be right. If a brick fell in the stadia, they thought the whole stadium was wrong or if dengue was...2000 cases...they thought whole city was full of dengue and all. There were a lot of apprehensions, lots of misgivings, lots of misunderstandings. I don't think people really realized and the worst part of it was everybody thought that we were getting late. But we were not. We were ready 4-5 days just before the games. I think it's a good enough period.
Vikram Chandra: Actually, I'm going to take you up a little bit on that. A lot of people think that having Games of this magnitude ready just in time...let's face it...the Games Village for example...it was a frantic last minute clean up drive. You spearheaded it, last minute frantic drive. It should not have happened. We should have ideally got the facilities up and running by June and July at least. The blood pressures would have been much lower.
Sheila Dikshit: But why don't you think of all the stadia. They were all ready by August. Each one of them and all of the A-class stadia. There was a problem with the village because somehow DDA slipped up on that and the builders were not as good or trustworthy as they should have been, and IOC also did not check up. When the village was handed over to them, they should have checked up, there were holes in the boundary walls where dogs would creep in, so there were these things.
Vikram Chandra: We had very reputed builders and DDA is a very powerful wing but you think there was major slip up.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, I think there was lack of total management and commitment. Because I do feel that the Village which was the most important thing for a player or for those who accompany them, if that is not comfortable, you know the funny part was that the international area in the Village was perfectly alright, but it was the living area, the quarters, which were appalling.
Vikram Chandra: When you went there in the last four-five days, was it an absolute mess?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, living quarters were an absolute mess. The athletes living quarters, the bedrooms, the toilets had water all over them. The basement was full of water, which meant the mosquito breeding. Then out of the 38 or 37 towers, 34 lifts were not working. So how do you expect people to go up and down? The corridors were dirty, it was stinking, it was terrible.
Vikram Chandra: So when it was said that only one or two quarters meant for staff were bad, it was not correct?
Sheila Dikshit: No, but even if they were meant only for staff, do you have to maltreat the staff? You have to treat everybody well. Minimum, you must have a clean bathroom. You must have a light that switches on, and you can't have a light switching off in my bedroom and switching off in the other bedroom. It was pure bad management.
Vikram Chandra: Moving away from this, let's talk about negatives, though I do think there were a lot of positives too. Even if many of the stadia were ready, it was a last minute thing. A lot of roads, a lot of work that happening around, landscaping, in hindsight, may be it could have been done three-four months earlier. So if you do have an extra bad monsoon as we did have, may be it would not have caused so much of chaos?
Sheila Dikshit: Please remember that everything was alright till, I would say, about four days before. There was no doubt about it. We were delayed because of the rains, because moisture in the air was not allowing the paint to dry up or the road to be, whatever the word is, but we were ready. The moment the sun came up, within five days flat, everything was alright. We were dealing with a very bad flood situation also.
Vikram Chandra: The point I'm making is we had seven years for this. Just in case we had to bid for Olympics, so looking at this and taking lessons for future, if these facilities were ready seven or six months in advance, then we would not have had to depend on monsoon or things drying up or floods, because those things can happen again in the future.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, I would say so but even now I say that even three-four month before, all the stadia were ready. I mean, it is a big amount of time for you correct anything that went wrong. If a pipe was leaking or the part of the floor came up, so there was time enough, and I must tell you one thing that everybody rose to the occasion. Everybody felt and there was this feeling, yes, we have to do it. It's the nation's pride. It doesn't matter if the roads are delayed for three-six months or a year, but this was critical and I think people did rise to the occasion. They did.
Vikram Chandra: There was a lot of sustained criticism. On corruption and also on 'shambolic' build up. It happened in the Indian media, it happened in the international media as well. Do you think it became excessive at some point?
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, of course it did. Because, I'll tell you, if a road was flooded, it was just a part of the road that was flooded, and the rest of the traffic was going on. I have seen it with my own eyes standing on top of the flyover. I saw the cameraman just taking that puddle in front of the bus stand. So the impression was as though the whole street was flooded. I went to Yamuna Vihar which was supposed to be really bad because of the flood, and I saw the photographs of cars hardly wading through the water. I went there personally. Every time I saw the TV, I went there. The highest I found was the water was knee deep. Otherwise, it was just about till the ankle. Now that is a low line, these are the problems we face. Any country would face them. Even if we had those areas ready, the floods would have ruined them. Please remember that also.
Vikram Chandra: There was section of Indian media also that was calling it 'shame game'. International media too continued to look for negatives - poisoned swimming pools that didn't actually exist, athlete tracks that did not run.
Sheila Dikshit: No, no, no. The international media picked it up because it was happening here. They felt that if India itself is saying that, then it must be so. They liked to believe it, so they picked it up. If you remember many of the athletes did not want to come. We were fearing or we were told that many of the countries were thinking what's the point for going to the Games, but eventually what happened was, something I can say with confidence, that nowhere in the world, that Games of this magnitude including Olympics have been ready two months before. Never.
Vikram Chandra: Was it really ready two months before?
Sheila Dikshit: All the stadia were ready. That is alright (when reminded by Vikram about landscaping and roads etc)...that is about collecting the rubble. Do you know how much rubble we have collected in the four months or five months? Two lakh eighty thousand metric tons. Delhi is a city which is a vibrant city, which is highly populated city, dense city, we did it. Why don't you all think of that? It was painful to see that but the other side, the good side was, every time we saw TV or media, it made us, charged us even more, or I would not have gone around seeing roads at 1 in night, lights at 2 in the night.
Vikram Chandra: It also lowered the expectations. That's why people were delighted when they saw, for example, the state of stadiums - which was fantastic.
Sheila Dikshit: Very fantastic. You know we were worried about everything. It required very minute detailing. Now the problem here is diversity of responsibilities. You know OC is doing something, PWD is doing something, CPWD is doing something, MCD and NDMC doing something else. To put them all together, to see that this side of the road that belongs to MCD gets ready as much as the road that belongs to CPWD or LNDO, so we used to take rounds.
Vikram Chandra: Wasn't this the single biggest problem. Later you were given charge (of the Village), but surely it could have been done months earlier - one agency, one body that can take decisions. When we asked what about a particular problem, well that was not our responsibility (the answer), other agency would say that so and so was not done by other agency. That's a recipe for chaos.
Sheila Dikshit: It is true, because when you had made a road or you made a footpath, MTNL would come and start digging, or the police would put up their signage much later, so digging up again, so there was this problem. Therefore, I think one of the biggest lessons we have learnt from this is, when we have Games in future, there should be a command, there could be a group of people, three people or four people, does not matter, but there should be somebody so that you can say, alright now, and that command should have the authority also. Please believe me that it was the Cabinet Secretary and me who got the authority and got the Village going, with four days to go.
Vikram Chandra: But is that not what group of ministers should have been, a month in advance.
Sheila Dikshit: No, the group of ministers were always told that everything was alright and nobody went in. In fact the day PM called the last meeting, I picked up the courage to go to the Village. I said I better go there and see because a lot is being written about it. When I went there, I was really appalled. At that meeting, I expressed my very, very deep concerns. All the time we were told that it was wonderful, so and so came and said this is the best we have seen. You know a simple thing like you have a balcony, you have a railing. You found that at many places, the glass wasn't there. So if somebody went out at night, they could have fallen off. Accidents could have taken place. But I must tell you that people towards the end came together, and I include the private sector in this. NDTV for instance helped us a lot by saying, come and join, be the solution rather than a problem. That helped a lot, but even more so, (the hotels) they came and I told the Chief Secretary, look it's going to cost us money. He said, ma'am we better do it, whether it cost us money or not. I told Mr Reddy, he said go ahead and do it. We got them to do the housekeeping. Do you know they haven't charged us a penny, they worked very hard, they turned it around. All of them whether it is Lalit or ITC or Taj or Meridian, Oberoi, all of them got together. I asked them why haven't they charged us, they said it's a national issue. We just have to put it right. Now you see that feeling of doing things alright because water had just gone over our head and we were getting such an awful feedback.
Vikram Chandra: Absolutely. There was a question of corruption and that is even today. I think the country is determined on one thing, it must be pursued. If there was a massive corruption or even medium level corruption, it has to be probed and guilty have to be found.
Sheila Dikshit: I would agree with you on this completely. The PM has said it, and I think Sonia Gandhi has said it that whatever has gone wrong, whether it was corruption, it will be dealt with severely. But I must also tell you another thing that there is enormous system in government. You have the CVC, CBI, ED. Then you have parliamentary committees and all. So eventually corruption does not get away. Whether you are able to pinpoint it, that's a separate issue altogether.
Vikram Chandra: Make a case of them. Punish the people who are guilty and may be people will think twice about it if it happens in the future.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, but I tell you most of the paperwork will be fine. I don't know where the corruption is. Like for instance if you take, there is a mystery about the tickets, everybody said that stadia was empty and everybody went to buy tickets, they were not available. So what happened? We also know many people bought complimentary tickets, paid for them...
Vikram Chandra: Which they should not have. I'll give you a number of examples. We all know that people overpaid than what they should have. I can't believe they were voluntarily overpaid. There must be a reason behind it.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, I guess so but it's a mystery to me. It's a mystery that should be solved.
Vikram Chandra: Can I say everybody has to do this. It's not that CVC has not indicted Delhi Government. They have very clearly said that Delhi Government also bears their share of responsibility in cases of corruption and infrastructure projects. Is this going to be your priority, in case there are people from your Government?
Sheila Dikshit: No, there is a difference. This is where you all have misunderstood. What CVC was doing at that point of time was its routine. It picks up a sample, says alright the sample was not good. What do you have to say about it? Because a bridge can be six kilometre long, can be five kilometre, can have an underpass, it can have an over bridge, one road can be made this way, one road can be made that way. It's a cemented road, other one is symantec road...all kinds of things like that. Now that was preliminary inquiry by CVC, which has an engineering department, which does go. It happens all the time, this time it got highlighted because you know, the spirit of the...
Vikram Chandra: As investigations proceed and probe does continue, you may find cases where you must be hearing rumours as much as I'm doing - there are bridges on which people made money. As a result of that sub-standard material was used. These are speculations, only a proper inquiry can tell what is fact and what is cooked up. Do you think that inquiry is called for and guilty should be punished?
Sheila Dikshit: Absolutely. There should be no two opinions on that. Ministers, officers, whoever it may be, if you can point it out, the action should follow. I really believe that. It would be an important test case not only for the future but also it will be a warning that you cannot get away with giving substandard stuff. That is there. The metro is always under scrutiny. The buses are under scrutiny. We have had CAG report asking why did you buy buses at 40 lakhs when everywhere else it was sold for X amount. We wrote back to them saying that we haven't bought our buses at a higher rate, in fact they are at a lower rate, because they are low floor buses, AC buses, and they accepted that eventually.
Vikram Chandra: It needs to be probed in details. Obviously, not all charges are going to be correct, but even if there is one charge that is correct, that person should be punished.
Sheila Dikshit: I agree with you there and I think we owe it to the people to take action.
Vikram Chandra: Before we end, on a happy note the way it has happened with CWG Games, let's turn our attention to positives. What are the biggest positives? Infrastructure of Delhi or 'can do feeling' or 101 medals we have got?
Sheila Dikshit: Well all three. Delhi is going to have a legacy. What bothers me about that legacy is that we have to maintain it. We have been already speaking for last one month that every division that is concerned with construction or with infrastructure must have a maintenance division, so that it goes on (Vikram interrupts: Can we use those stadiums?) Of course, we should. We are thinking we have got language academies. Delhi is thinking of bringing up academies of sports, so that these stadia are used. Let children come here, they are beautiful stadia, and if it is there, how many more Golds we are going to get. In fact players have done us very, very proud and the last Gold was really a bonanza. The opening and the closing ceremonies, everybody was skeptical. I myself was skeptical because they hadn't been able to rehearse because of the rains, but it came together. It came off very well.
Vikram Chandra: Two other heroes I want to bring your attention to, one is security. There was tight security but I have to say I have never seen Delhi police more polite.
Sheila Dikshit: The Delhi Police was polite and people were disciplined. I have never seen the queues the way I saw in the stadia these days. Nobody complaining - in the train, in the buses, people adhered to discipline.
Vikram Chandra: In fact that was the second hero I was talking about - citizens of Delhi. They have been through a lot, though they are also going to be pampered with the infrastructure legacy, but during the Games I was actually stunned to see people driving in lanes, not honking, no one overtaking.
Sheila Dikshit: That too with one lane empty. The temptation to go to, you know. That means we can do it if we want to, we can discipline ourselves. But it's a collective effort. It's just not the police, just not the citizens, all of them have to get together. If a sense of discipline comes, a sense of 'this is my city, my pride', this belongs to me and this infrastructure is going to last, let me not put scratches on it, spoil it, all this needs to be disciplined.
Vikram Chandra: Why was there no traffic jam? Is that because people drove in lanes? So we know what it takes.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, but of course we must remember that a lot of traffic was taken off the roads. No blue lines, no school or college buses and also I believe, I'm not sure of that, a lot of the entry during the day time was stopped from coming from outside Delhi. It means we can do if we want to, and it is comfortable both for the people and police, eventually it's your and my city.
Vikram Chandra: So final thoughts? Olympic bid or Asian games bid? Do you think we should think about this or sit back and digest this for two-three years and learn the appropriate lessons and then do it?
Sheila Dikshit: We have to learn the lessons but remember these are the second largest Games after the Olympics in the world. We have done them with success. And now, we feel confident that we can bid for the Olympics, but that a decision that the government of India and Olympic Association - that's a decision they have to take. If they choose Rio De Janeiro or they choose Atlanta.
Vikram Chandra: But you as Chief Minister of Delhi would be happy to see Delhi bid for Olympics.
Sheila Dikshit: I would be happy but I would not be there, it's somewhere in the 2020s, but this experience has taught us a lot. We have learnt a lot of lessons.
Vikram Chandra: About taking credits?
Sheila Dikshit: It's not about individuals taking credits. I tell you very frankly this is not an individual's credit. The cleaning staff that cleaned up the staircase and kept the corridors cleaned or the engineer who looked after the stadia...
Vikram Chandra: So you don't deserve the credit you have got?
Sheila Dikshit: Certainly not. What would I have done alone? What could anybody do alone? What was lacking was a team spirit, a collective spirit, once that came, everything turned around.
Vikram Chandra: Many congratulations for having survived CWG. I think all those who stayed away probably missed something.
Sheila Dikshit: Yes, it was not nice of them to say that. I had in fact a bit of a row in party. I said even if you are going out, why do you have to say that you are going out. You go out anywhere, why does Mani Shankar have to say that?