This Article is From Nov 18, 2013

Jairam Ramesh to NDTV: Full transcript

NDTV: With just a few months to go for elections, Jairam Ramesh, there is a perception that the Congress campaign is on the back foot. Now you could that this is a media perception, that this is a media narrative. But certainly from where I am sitting it looks to me that the BJP at this point has the more aggressive, organised communications campaign and the Congress is still finding its way. As a convener of the election campaign would you say that?

Jairam Ramesh:
No I don't think that's quite true because now our focus is on the state assembly elections. We are focusing only on Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Delhi,   Chattisgarh and Mizoram. We have about 5 or 5 and a half months for the national elections. and as we come towards January or February, our campaign will undoubtedly pick up momentum. I agree that we are not high decibel, high octane campaign as the BJP has.

NDTV: Is that deliberate or by accident?

Jairam Ramesh: That's the nature of the BJP. The BJP is the master of hype. You know it creates the hype, it begins to believe its own hype, and it becomes a victim of its own hype.
NDTV: What if the voters also believe that hype?

Jairam Ramesh:
The voters didn't believe it in 2004 and they didn't believe it in 2009 and I don't think they are going to believe it in 2014. The Congress is much more subdued. It has a slow start. I mean if you were to compare from the world of athletics, the BJP is like a 100 m sprint and the Congress is more into the marathon. It's a long distance game we are playing. But right now our focus is exclusively on the state assembly elections.

NDTV:
We'll come to the metaphor of the marathon vs the sprint in just a moment but when you say your focus is on the assembly elections, do you enter these elections with a disadvantage? Because it's widely believed that in at least 3 of the 4 states the BJP has a clear edge and even Delhi is a really, really tough fight for Shiela Dikshit. So would you accept the verdict of these elections, whatever it is, will be a prelude to what's going to happen in 2014?

Jairam Ramesh: No. Look at what happened in 2003. In 2003 we were wiped out in Rajasthan, wiped out in Madhya Pradesh, wiped out in Chhattisgarh but 5 months later we came into power in New Delhi. So I don't think state elections anywhere are a referendum on the national elections.

NDTV:
You think one has nothing to do with the other? Take a place like Delhi where the urban response could be a measure of what people feel...

Jairam Ramesh:
Well, yeah, I mean it gives you a certain indicator but first of all I wouldn't say it's a referendum. Secondly I would not extrapolate one on one from the state assembly elections. They are tough, there's no question, they are tough. You know our entire leadership was decimated in Chhattisgarh. It was part of a political conspiracy and that really set us back but we are still very hopeful of coming back to power in Chhattisgarh so there are factors in each of these states. The BJP is strong in these states. The congress is in power in Rajasthan, the Congress has been in power in Delhi for almost 15 years. So it's not going to be easy but, at the same time, I do not believe that the results of these assembly polls, if they go in our favor, does not automatically mean that 2014 is going to be easy for us. And if these assembly elections go against us, it does not mean that the national elections are going to go in the favor of the BJP.

NDTV:
Before I get to the big national picture, do you believe that the Congress needs to take Arvind Kejriwal more seriously than it has and should that seriousness be expressed in decisions that are widely perceived to be witch hunts? Why does the Congress, in the middle of the elections, have the Home Minister announcing that the source of funding of the Aam Aadmi Party is going to be probed?

Jairam Ramesh:
To the best of my knowledge, I have not followed this debate, the inquiry into the source of funding is in response to a judicial pronouncement, the High Court directive. So I don't think it was a suo moto decision of the government of India to explore the source of these funds. But to come back to your original question, do we take Arvind Kejriwal seriously, yes of course we have to take every competitor seriously.

NDTV: Has he changed the rules of the game? At least he has a party that says we disclose our donors on our website and if you're going to investigate funds, where are donor lists of the Congress and BJP?

Jairam Ramesh:
There have been Arvind Kejriwals in other parts, you know Arvind Kejriwal has got a lot of traction and publicity because he happens to be in Delhi but some years ago we had Jaiprakash Narayan float the Lok Satta Party in Andhra Pradesh and he ended up with 2% of the vote. So I'm not underestimating anybody but to paint Arvind Kejriwal as a giant killer, somebody who will come to power on his own, I think is gross media exaggeration.

NDTV: Now you said that Congress is a marathon-runner and BJP is a 100m sprint athlete. Here's the problem and you expressed the problem yourself. You said it was your own frustration that Rahul Gandhi was looking at that long term perspective but if there's an election that needs to be fought right now, and won or maybe lost, right now, in the here and the now, is Rahul Gandhi losing sight of the fact that as he is creating building blocks, that's what he is arguing, that he's creating building blocks, then what about this election?

Jairam Ramesh:
Rahul Gandhi, as I see it, as I see him as an observer and as a colleague, is rebuilding the party organisation. He is building structures, he is building systems, they are reflected in the choice of candidates for these assembly elections, in the nature of his campaigning, He is putting in place processes which will stand the party in good stead.

NDTV:
There is a perception that Rahul Gandhi has an esoteric approach to elections, wherein he had this group of experts around him. They all had fancy degrees from the right colleges in the United States of America and they come and they look at politics as if it were an excel sheet whereas politics is a bunch of intangibles and a lot of it has to do with being out there, being in touch with people. When you expressed that frustration about the long term project of Rahul Gandhi versus the winning and the losing of this election, weren't you actually going public with what a lot of Congress people feel?

Jairam Ramesh:
I think you have twisted my remarks completely out of context. See yes sure Mr Gandhi is trying to build a new kind of politics, he is trying to build a new Congress but at the same time he is a Member of Parliament. He is the Vice President of the Congress Party. He is our leader.  He is masterminding and executing our election campaign for the assembly elections and for the 2014 Lok Sabha elections. So to say that for him politics is only an excel sheet, is I don't think it is absolutely right. Let me give you one example of what I mean. You say that Mr Gandhi has to demonstrate the politics of the ground. Let me tell you what he has done in UP. What has got to media attraction and virtually no media attention. In the last 6 years, Mr Gandhi through an organization that he heads, the RGMVP, the Rajiv Gandhi Mahila Vikas Pariyojana, has mobilized 11 lakh women into almost 93 thousand self-help groups in 40 districts of Uttar Pradesh. This is something that very few politicians can boast of. This is on the ground. 11 lakh women. 93 thousand women self-help groups. Now you may say Jairam Ramesh speaking, not independent. I think the best tribute that came to Mr Gandhi was that just 10 days ago, Uttar Pradesh govt which is not exactly our ally when it comes to the polls, signed an MOU with the RGMVP, expanding this activity from 40 districts to 75 districts.

NDTV: No my question would be a little more political in response to...

Jairam Ramesh:
That's political by the way. And that's politics on the ground.
NDTV: Then why is the Congress doing so badly in Uttar Pradesh? The last time Rahul Gandhi led the campaign there. And he came out and took personal responsibility for the defeat that the Congress faced there. Even if the best of the Congress there, Priyanka Gandhi had campaigned in that she had hoped 10 seats would come the Congress way, that did not happen. So somewhere that good work that you are talking about...

Jairam Ramesh:
It will take time for it to translate into electoral support. Also Mr Gandhi has been at pains to point out that he does not have the magic wand. His style of politics is not I, me, myself as compared to somebody else. His style of politics is more of a collective, more consensual approach and saying that look my job is to create opportunities for you. That's his key approach. My job is to facilitate your empowerment. My job is to create opportunities for you and you  will then find your own solutions so the women self-help group initiative that he has taken which I dont find any other political leader having taken and remember to do it in UP, where you are not in power, where the administration is not in your favor, you don't have the levers of administration to do it in Uttar Pradesh. I think it's a remarkable achievement.

NDTV:
You say that his approach to politics is consensual. It's not autocratic, as you seem to allude to Narendra Modi. But I want to pick up one example where- it seems to me that Rahul Gandhi while being on the right side of the issue, was actually being autocratic and that is on the ordinance that he said was nonsense. He said it looked like it was protecting convicted politicians. You were caught on the back foot. You didn't ...you went on camera defending that ordinance. Poor Ajay Maken had his press conference hijacked, embarrassed in front of a dozen cameras. How is Rahul Gandhi, while picking up the right principle, not being dictatorial?

Jairam Ramesh:
I have gone on record as having said and I don't mind saying it...Well he may certainly have put the government on a back foot but I think he electrified the party, he saved the party, and I think he sent a very powerful signal of what his politics is all about. I think in the months to come you will find Mr Gandhi communicating much more what his values are, what his vision is, what he stands for. And I think the ordinance was just an example of the type of politics he wishes to bring about in our country.

NDTV: Weren't you and your colleagues embarrassed that you had to be put in a position where you had to publicly defend something?
Jairam Ramesh: He put the government on a back foot, fine. But sometimes you have to take positions very forcefully. And I'm glad that he took that position forcefully. It was a very loud, very...

NDTV: Why couldn't he take that position on a party forum? After all  the Core Group had initially ...

Jairam Ramesh:
It was very powerful. Okay fine, it was unexpected, no doubt about it, but my first reaction when I heard that he did it was 'Wow, great, this is Mr Rahul Gandhi coming out'. I think we need more occasions for the real Mr Gandhi to come out because let me tell you, having worked with him for about  a decade, there are certain fundamental principles which he wants to enshrine as a part of the institutional decision making process. He believes in decentralization. He's one of the few Indian politicians who's been to Jammu and Kashmir very frequently and he was there even last week. And what is his message in J&K? He's talking about women's empowerment, hes talking about employment to youth and hes talking about strengthening panchayati raj institutions. I don't find many J&K politicians talking in this language let alone Indian politicians, politicians from other mainstream political parties. So I think the challenge now, in the months to come is  to get Mr Gandhi to come out and articulate what he stands for. The ordinance was, let me tell you Barkha, to my mind, vintage Rahul Gandhi.

NDTV: You said that the challenge is for Rahul Gandhi to come out more clearly on what he stands for on various issues. Here's the mystery. Why is it that Rahul Gandhi's interventions are so erratic? They're always high octane, they're always come with great visibility and I remember when this whole debate was happening about the Lokpal bill, you suddenly had Rahul Gandhi standing up in Parliament and talking about how it could be a body along the lines of the Election Commission.
Jairam Ramesh: He intervened on the Land Acquisition Bill, and he directed the course of the debate on the Land Acquisition Bill. The bill wouldn't have come about had it not been for Rahul Gandhi.

NDTV: Sushma Swaraj contested that and said it was because of her support and the support of the BJP that the Land Acquisition Bill became a reality...

Jairam Ramesh:
I publicly acknowledged in Parliament the contributions of Sushma Swaraj particularly but let me tell you the structure, the architecture of the bill, owes much to Mr Rahul Gandhi's intervention.

NDTV:
One senior BJP leader said that Rahul Gandhi's interventions are like, if you look at politics as a Hindi film, it's like the item number in the film, they attract a lot of attention, sometimes more than the film itself, but that's what they are. They're an item number, they are a part of the main script because they come suddenly, without warning and then he fades into the background and doesn't speak again. Why is he not consistent? If he's leading the party campaign, why don't the people of India, why don't the Congress members know his sides on various issues?

Jairam Ramesh:
I'm not a psychologist. I'm only a hack,

NDTV: You're the convener of the campaign

Jairam Ramesh: All I can say is that Mr Gandhi's style is more low-key, almost self-effacing to a point. He's not in-your-face type of a style. And the media is now getting used to a protagonist who is in your face, who's everyday telling everybody that 'I am the answer to all of India's problems. I, me , myself.' So I think his style is somewhat different, it's  much more subdued, His style is much more calibrated and careful, more thought out and that gives the impression that he intervenes selectively. He's not an AK-47 - bam bam bam bam everyday. I think as we get into the election campaign, the sense I get is that Mr Gandhi has already been a very very energetic campaigner  and I'm sure that in the national elections, he's going to be even more energetic.

NDTV: Does the party not have a problem in the fact that people like yourself, other senior colleagues in the party have actually accused Narendra Modi of not really engaging with the media, not really taking tough questions. You said it in your interview to Reuters, Kapil Sibal said it in an interview to me. Is this the wrong criticism to make of Narendra Modi given how little the top leadership of the Congress party , and I will include Manmohan Singh, Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi in this, engage with the media at all?
Jairam Ramesh: I mean why should we shy away from the fact that all of us want our Prime Minister to communicate much more. All of us want our Congress President to communicate much more, all of us want the Vice-President to communicate much more.

NDTV:
Why don't they?

Jairam Ramesh:
I think it's much more careful, I think it's much more calibrated, I think it's also the fact that the media has often a very instinctive tendency for  running away with the headlines, trying  to give a headline twist to what they say, don't take the time to really bring out the issues. But as we go into the elections, in the next 5-6 months, I suspect and I'm really confident that the big three- the Congress President, the Prime Minister and the Vice President - will be actually engaging much more to the media and through public meetings. It's wrong to say that they don't communicate. They may not be giving interviews to Barkha Dutt or to anybody else but they are going out into the public.

NDTV:
Then don't criticize Narendra Modi for not engaging with the media. It's the wrong criticism to make of him when Congress does not have a clean slate on the same issue.
Jairam Ramesh: Everything is not a one-one. The point is here is Mr Modi, you know the Prime Ministerial candidate of the BJP, making all sorts of claims. Mr Modi thinks he is making history but every day he is making up history. He is coming up with new facts which completely go against the grain of historical truth and scholarship. He has even invented stories of the founder of his own party, SP Mukherjee. It is akin to my saying,  Oh! Nehru was selling paint before he got into politics and confusing Jawaharlal Nehru with Arun Nehru..

NDTV: And yet the rebuttals are coming from Jairam Ramesh, from Kapil Sibal. They are not coming from Rahul Gandhi. Rahul Gandhi is not countering Narendra Modi in his campaign speeches.

Jairam Ramesh:
I don't agree with you there Barkha. I do not think ...

NDTV:
Give me one example where Rahul Gandhi has taken on Narendra Modi ...

Jairam Ramesh:
Here I disagree with you completely. Much as I would want Rahul Gandhi to communicate much more, this is where I disagree with you. I do not think Rahul Gandhi should be getting into a 'tu tu main main' with Modi. Modi believes in politics of gutter. That is what Modi wants. He wants politics of the gutter,  of invective and abuse and counter abuse, of innuendo and insinuation. I think it goes against the grain if what Mr Gandhi stands for and it's certainly not what the Congress party wants the campaign to be.

NDTV:
But does the Congress not have to accept that Narendra Modi is a reality. He is your principle challenger. Yet your government can't seem to speak in one voice on that. You have Mr Shinde just yesterday saying that he's not a challenger. You have Mr Chidambaram saying of course he's a challenger. Is he a challenger or not? Let's first settle that.
Jairam Ramesh: To use a Clintonesque phrase, it depends on what you mean by the word 'challenge'.

NDTV:
What does the word mean to you?

Jairam Ramesh:
He's a political reality. He is the Prime Ministerial candidate of our principle Opposition party. By the way, our competition with the BJP is only in 7 or 8 states. It's not an all-India competition. We are competing with the BJP largely in Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi. Only direct competition. But to say that it is Congress vs BJP on a national scale that's not true. Because the Congress is the only party with a national footprint, which is not only contesting the BJP in some states but also contending with regional parties in other states. But yes, the point is that the BJP has announced him as their Prime Ministerial candidate. He's a reality. He is leading their campaign. We have to deal with him. We cannot ignore him, we cannot airbrush him aside.

NDTV: When you deal with him, should that dealing come just from the senior leaders of the party while Rahul Gandhi somehow stands above it all and doesn't even mention Narendra Modi?

Jairam Ramesh:
No I think Mr Gandhi, my advice to Mr Gandhi would be certainly not to get into the cycle of abuse and counter abuse. That's precisely what...

NDTV: But all of you are, all of you did.

Jairam Ramesh: Yeah, but you know, we are not Prime Ministerial candidates, we are not Prime Ministerial aspirants.

NDTV:
Is Rahul Gandhi one? We don't even know that.

Jairam Ramesh: Mr Gandhi is our leader. He's masterminding our campaign, he's strategising our campaign. So I feel that Mr Modi is deliberately creating the conditions for a campaign that is based on a direct contest between him and Mr Gandhi.

NDTV:
And why would that be wrong? He's allowed his political strategy.

Jairam Ramesh:
No, Barkha. That goes against the very grain of our political system.  In our system the contest is between parties, between party ideologies, party programs, party visions, party history, party pledges. We are parties that are contesting with each other. Parties have symbols, individuals don't have symbols. Now we are not going to convert these elections or any election for that matter into Presidential contests.

NDTV: That's not true because the Congress likes to say Sonia Gandhi led us to this victory, Manmohan Singh led us to this victory. That's giving credit to a personality.

Jairam Ramesh: You know leaders do lead campaigns, individuals do matter. But to trivialise elections and to reduce all elections to Individual A vs Individual B, I think is not doing justice to  the nature of our political system and I think it's making a mockery of our political system.

NDTV: I want to pick a little bit on the narrative of Rahul Gandhi's campaign as it seems to me. It seems to me that Rahul Gandhi is positioning himself and the Congress party as the party of the poor, as the party that does not speak for the elite but speaks for the ordinary citizen. Just on this issue, without the invective, I think Narendra Modi had an interesting counter argument. He said in one of his speeches what does Rahul Gandhi know about poverty? I am the one who grew up selling chai on trains. They have never known poverty. In that counter argument he questioned the essential family of privilege that the Gandhi family is. Do you think that there's a problem with a family that is believed to be essentially elitist?

Jairam Ramesh:
I don't think so. What is Mr Modi's track record? In the last 12 years as CM of Gujarat, who has he helped? Has he helped the few rich of Gujarat or the many poor of Gujarat? Look at the many social indicators. I don't want to make this into a Gujarat sob story but the fact is that Gujarat is one of our most industrialized states, it's one of our most urbanized states. It's perhaps our most entrepreneurial state. That's not because of Mr Modi, it's because of the nature of Gujarati society and Gujarati system which delivers. Now , if in the last 12 years you look or all indicators, you look at malnutrition, child mortality, sanitation, you look at all the social indicators, Gujarat does very very poorly. Now this is a reflection directly on Mr Modi, the man who claims that he has come from their ranks and is therefore able to sympathize more with the poor. That's not borne out by the track record.. It's not borne out by the figures.

NDTV: My question is a little different. Mr Modi spoke of his own experience of being born into poverty. He also questioned the dynastic principle that seems to govern the Congress party.

Jairam Ramesh:
I was born in an upper middle class family. Does that mean I shouldn't have any pro-poor instincts?

NDTV: You said that if Narendra Modi loses this election he will be nowhere and Rahul Gandhi will still go on to which critics have pointed out that that's the problem of the Congress party. If Rahul Gandhi can't deliver elections, he shouldn't be around for them.

Jairam Ramesh:
Look, the reality is that Mr Modi is 63 and Mr Gandhi is 43.

NDTV: So you are making an age argument.

Jairam Ramesh:
Mr Gandhi is 43 and biologically, forget the politics, biologically...Mr Modi is 63, Mr Gandhi is 43 and what I meant was that at 43 your vision is, long term, at 63 your vision is necessarily restricted to the next election.

NDTV: Rahul Gandhi spoke about him remembering as a child how is grandmother was assassinated and how he grew up playing badminton with the men who ended up killing Indira Gandhi. It could have been and it was tragic. It was moving. But the problem is it being left incomplete. Rahul Gandhi talks about the politics of hate, of communalism, he speaks about his own experience of witnessing his grandmothers assassination. But he fails to mention the 1984 anti-Sikh riots in the same speech.   Isn't that selective formulation when you talk about the politics of hate, when you talk about the politics of communal riots in this country?

Jairam Ramesh:
No I don't think...The Congress President on numerous occasions I know has spoken about the 1984 riots. I think our PM on numerous occasions in Parliament has spoken very poignantly and touchingly about the carnage that happened. Who can defend the anti-Sikh riots of 1984? I certainly don't. But let us not forget that in the aftermath of the riots the PM of India at that time, Mr Rajiv Gandhi, went on the streets of Delhi for 48 hours trying to bring peace in an environment in which brute passions had been....

NDTV:
But he also had that terrible victory metaphor.

Jairam Ramesh:
Nothing can justify the 1984 riots. Mr Gandhi was speaking about his personal being, of him being shaped. Undoubtedly his grandmother has been a profound influence on him, his grandmother has been a profound influence on many people, including me. So what he was trying to bring out was the lessons that he has learnt from his grandmother and I do not believe that Mr Gandhi- I have not discussed this with him-knowing Mr Gandhi as I do, I do not believe that for a single moment that Mr Gandhi will defend what happened in 1984 in Delhi.

I'm sure at some appropriate occasion he will give expression to that view but I am 100% sure that Mr Gandhi feels as much as you do and as much as I do on what happened in the aftermath of the assassination of Mrs Gandhi.

NDTV:
Do you believe that it was a misstep in his campaign the manner in which he chose to articulate perhaps a genuine concern that boys who had been victims of communal violence in Muzaffarnagar could now be courted by agencies in Pakistan? Now even Muslim leaders reacted and said you are questioning our patriotism for which the EC has given him a notice, Mr Gandhi has responded back. Do you believe that it was a very clumsy articulation that sounded like, here you have these people who have not gone back to their homes, they are living without the basics in relief camps. This is three hours away from Delhi. Instead of talking about that you're saying that the ISI can get to them?

Jairam Ramesh:
No Barkha. You know in public life we say many things and some times those things are taken out of context and we become victims of controversies. There's no one better to say this than me as I've been a victim of many controversies. Something that I have said is always taken out of context. Now what did Mr Gandhi say? All Mr Gandhi said is that look, when there are communal riots, and people are deliberately targeted, they develop a sense of alienation, of anger and that could be fodder for the enemies of India. That's all he was saying. He said it in his way.

NDTV:
In public life you notice how one says something.

Jairam Ramesh:
He's learning, he's moving on, he's speaking much more frequently. Many things which Mr Modi has said are unacceptable. And many times...I don't think any political leader...I think the only answer is not to say anything. Then you become Moni Baba and never get into trouble.

NDTV:
I would say that's what Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have decided. And Rahul Gandhi. I mean he speaks at campaign rallies but that it.

Jairam Ramesh:
That's essentially what he was saying that if there are communal riots you develop a sense of alienation, a sense of anger and that can be easily exploited by people who don't have our interests at heart.

NDTV: Were you surprised to find you and Narendra Modi agreeing on the need for sanitation above all? Were you surprised to find him agreeing on that.

Jairam Ramesh:
No, no you know it's interesting Mr Modi and I, long before Mr. Modi became the social media icon used to appear on NDTV programmes quite frequently and we have appeared on I think it was on 'Questions Of Answers' done by Vir Sanghvi for more than 2 occasions. That time it was different a different Mr. Modi. This is now of course different Mr. Modi that time he was general secretary this time and now he is prime ministerial aspirant. I don't know what Mr. Modi stands for frankly. I really don't know because in this campaign he has demonstrated a remarkable capability of saying what his audience wants him to say. He says many things, does he actually believe in those? I don't know. Does he actually believe that 'sochalaya' is more important than 'devalaya'. I don't know. I mean if he actually believed in it when his own activists and friends were coming outside my house and urinating and 'gherao-ed' me when I made that statement that toilets are more important than temples, he should have come out at that point of time.
 
NDTV:
You posed a question to him but you didn't answer that same question yourself. You said Kanshiram had once famously said that a urinal or a big sanitation...

Jairam Ramesh:
That that statement got me into trouble because BSP has disowned...
 
NDTV:
The BSP has disowned that he said it..

Jairam Ramesh:
Although there is enough evidence to show that he has said it , but i dont want to get into a debate about Kanshiram right now

NDTV: But would you, let's say that person X said it that at the disputed site that that's ..
Jairam Ramesh: No, no I don't want to talk about the dispute at site but I do want to say that yes this country requires far greater attention to toilets and this country would be better off with fewer temples, fewer mosques, fewer churches, fewer gurudwaras.

NDTV: And you are going to be accused of upsetting religious sentiments just now....
Jairam Ramesh: Look I don't want. I don't look we need to focus on..

NDTV:
Why doesn't have to be either or why does it have to be either or when you say this country has would be better off fewer temples, mosques, churches guruduwaras .. what does that mean?

Jairam Ramesh: It's the mindset, it's the priority that we give. Do we consider sanitation as important as spirituality?

NDTV: Do we have to choose between the two?

Jairam Ramesh: But life is limited no, life is limited and we have to make choices and and i would rather be in a society which treats sanitation far more seriously than a society which is engaged all the time in a pursuit of spirituality.. by the way Mahatma Gandhi said the pursuit of sanitation is the pursuit of spirituality so there is no conflict between the two actually.

NDTV: Okay it's a tough pursuit for you, you have a tough job on your hands. Thanks for talking to us.
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