Walk the talk with Michael Bloomberg
He is a business magnate and a philanthropist. Michael Bloomberg, the former Mayor of New York City and UN Secretary-General's Special Envoy for Cities and Climate Change, was in New Delhi and spoke to Shekhar Gupta about climate change, air pollution and ways to make cities cleaner and better for the future generations.
Here is the full transcript of the interview:
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk, I'm Shekhar Gupta back in front of Parliament after a very long time and my guest this week, how do I describe him, I'll describe him the way everybody describes him, Michael Bloomberg, Mayor of the world.
Michael Bloomberg: Thank you
Shekhar Gupta: Welcome to Walk the Talk and welcome to Delhi
Michael Bloomberg: Thank you, happy to be here and happy to be with you
Shekhar Gupta: You've listed your five reasons for coming to India, talk about them
Michael Bloomberg: Well, India is one of those countries that will set the world's agenda for my children. The world is changing, technology is making everybody's interest accessible, empowering people in ways never before in history. India has the scale, India has lots of problems but so does every other country, but India has a group of very intelligent people who can take the best from elsewhere and bring it back to India, but also take the best of India and export it to the rest of the world.
Shekhar Gupta: But you also talk about smart cities that India is trying to build, making smart cities climate friendly, India's youth, India's democracy
Michael Bloomberg: Cities are where 70% people of the world will live by the year 2050, already roughly half the people in the world live in cities, cities are where governments deliver services that you can measure. I don't know whether the federal government in any country keeps you safe, we never find out until you are attacked. I don't know whether some of the economic policies of federal government, is it good or bad? You can only find out later when results may be transferred back. Do you know at a city level whether the garbage is picked up, whether that person lying on the ground who needs help, gets the help? I know whether the electricity is on, goes on when I throw the switch, whether water comes out when I turn the tap, the services that I can measure and that change my life. Education for example is another one at local level. Those kinds of things I can measure and that's what cities deliver. Even no matter what the Constitution of the country is, city is where the services get really distributed.
Shekhar Gupta: India also has the most dysfunctional cities of the world now in the democratic world
Michael Bloomberg: So do other countries. We have plenty of dysfunctional cities in America too. I would like to think New York is not one of those but there are cities that don't work. The Great Michigan for example, a very big city, enormous industrial powerhouse and today if you go through the downtown there is enormous open waste land where buildings have been ripped down and there is nobody there. Now the good news is that the Governor of the state of Michigan and the Mayor are trying to bring the city back and so that may happen and I think it will, but we have our own problems, you don't own all problems of the world, even though...
Shekhar Gupta: The big challenge in our cities is whether an ambulance with a critical patient gets the right of way or not, it doesn't always happen
Michael Bloomberg: No, that doesn't happen in New York either. It's also true we are worried, is the air you're breathing or the water you're drinking, is that good for your body? We're always worried about whether there's crime or something, we are worried about whether somebody standing next to you is smoking and you inhale that smoke, we are worried about whether the food has quality, whether or not somebody is making sure there's no diseases
Shekhar Gupta: You really went after smoking and food and calories
Michael Bloomberg: Yes and life expectancy in New York city is three years greater than it was twelve years ago and its three years greater than national average and most big cities conventionally it will be lower, in our case its bigger.
Shekhar Gupta: It has crossed 80 years, 80.2 so how did you do that, how did you improve life expectancy in the city of New York?
Michael Bloomberg: A lot of small things, we would say there's no magic bullet. It is reducing smoking; it is reducing traffic deaths with better laws and helmets, going after people who don't use seat belts
Shekhar Gupta: That's one of your five reasons for coming to India
Michael Bloomberg: Absolutely, my aim is doing a lot on smoking and traffic, it is trying to convince people that certain foods will just make them obese and obesity kills you. It is going after fire deaths and making sure that people have smoke detectors in their houses or apartments so that they get noticed earlier and can get out in case of fire, all of these things add up to making longer and healthier lives of the people, its not like cure for everything, we'll never get there.
Shekhar Gupta: And you got restaurants to start listing calories of cuisines on their menu, you banned trans-fats
Michael Bloomberg: In New York city we banned trans-fats but more importantly we grade every restaurant and in the window of the restaurant you have a sign, an A, B, C, and people don't go to B and C restaurants, so the restaurants have to clean up, and you say these things don't matter, the number of cases of salmonella at the city hospitals, way down, almost overnight, because the restaurants don't want to lose their A grade because they'll lose their business. In the end we do most things not for altruistic reasons, we do most things for selfish reasons, it's good for my business, it's good for my children's health, that's the thing that drives most of them.
Shekhar Gupta: You say A, B, C or you shut them down and you do shut them down?
Michael Bloomberg: Yes and what they do is they clean up to re-open but some don't
Shekhar Gupta: So when you give this power to sub-inspectors obviously somebody in the Mayor's office...
Michael Bloomberg: There's always a chance from the state, there's always a chance of corruption. But we have a process where you can appeal and we send a different inspector and when you hear people complaining, the more they complain, the more you know its working. My favorite little diner from around the corner where I live got closed own for a month, now I love the food but the bottom-line is they have rats in the basement, mice and cockroaches and they cleaned it up and its opening up
Shekhar Gupta: It doesn't help to say that the Mayor is my customer and he's alive
Michael Bloomberg: It didn't keep them open, got it closed down
Shekhar Gupta: And what kind of resistance do you get when you went after trans-fats, which are used to make the tastier food? Most Indian sweet shops will shut down
Michael Bloomberg: That's not true, they found substitutes, nobody lost, in fact public health issues are popular. I know in the beginning people scream, its not people, its the press that is trying to make a story so that they can get advertisements and that's what this is all about. And you will find one person who's against the smoking ban and you have that person on your walk show. But most people don't smoke and virtually nobody wants to stand next to a smoker and breathe their air and die and that you don't report because that sells advertisements.
Shekhar Gupta: Unlikely I will have someone like that on Walk the Talk
Michael Bloomberg: I'm sure you will, you will never do this
Shekhar Gupta: I was brought up in a house full of smoke and I know what it means. And I know one thing common among all you politicians around the world is that media is to blame for a problem
Michael Bloomberg: No, I don't think that's totally true. But look I own a big media organisation, I've got 2300 journalists, there is no question that the public buys scandal and failure, Germans have a word for it where you revel in other people's failure
Shekhar Gupta: Schadenfreude
Michael Bloomberg: Schadenfreude and there's unfortunately the way human beings are. But my, let me tell you today, while everybody complained when I passed the ban on smoking in public restaurants and a lot of people made nasty gestures, I joke. I passed one of the restaurants I got many one-finger raised, today none of those restaurants would go back and those restaurants are doing better than they ever did before. And I kept saying people go to restaurants to eat and drink and smoke except the restaurants only make the money out of the eating and drinking and for all the time they spent smoking they are not eating and drinking. In the end it was good for the restaurants and was certainly good for the public health.
Shekhar Gupta: You not only run a big media organisation but one of the very few, rare organisations which is doing well in its cash flow
Michael Bloomberg: We are doing okay
Shekhar Gupta: In fact I keep, we all keep noticing rumours of Bloomberg buying FT
Michael Bloomberg: We are not buying FT; we are not buying anything. We are trying to put food on the table everyday.
Shekhar Gupta: It's a good idea. Back to cities, so what are you telling people you are meeting in India, this city has 20 million people, just elected a new government last week in a revolutionary election, a new party of young people defeated established parties
Michael Bloomberg: Look I'm not here to tell you how to run your city, I'm troubled enough running my city, I'm no longer running my city
Shekhar Gupta: But you brand it with distinction, your city it was a wreck after 9/11.
Michael Bloomberg: Yes but I think even those people that didn't agree with me or didn't like me, they respected the fact that we said this is what we are trying to do, this is why we are trying to do and if it doesn't work after 'x' number of days, months, years, we will roll it back. And people respect that kind of honesty. I don't think you're right, but at least I know you're trying, at least I know you're doing for the right reason and I think the governments where people believe that they are honest and trying, are governments that succeed, even if the public is not in favour of the policies. And in fact if the government is always catering to what you want then you've got to believe they are doing it for political reasons, not because they think it's right. And I don't care how smart you are, you don't have all the answers and I don't have all the answers. So what I'm here to do is to try to learn what you do that could be useful back in my country and in my city, and to say, to explain what we've done and what other cities around the world have done. Because I've been involved in this organisation called C-40, of which Delhi and Mumbai are two of the seventy-five cities where we share best practices. And I've talked to a number of your Ministers. Energy is one of the big things. Question is do you focus on coal, do you focus on renewable energy, wind and solar? And I've tried to explain, I don't think you can finance coal development because people are walking away from it from all around the world, coal is a very dangerous thing, it pollutes and when people say well I have to have economic development...
Shekhar Gupta: It leaves a scar in the ground
Michael Bloomberg: It leaves a scar in people's lungs too. In America 13,000 people die every year from the effects of coal fire power plants. In India the number is enormously big, look at the pollution problems, you and other big cities
Shekhar Gupta: This city has the worst air quality in the world right now, the only area...
Michael Bloomberg: I'm going to see your Prime Minister this afternoon. I am a believer that this argument, that I have to have economic development, even if it hurts the environment and then I will get to the environment stuff, not only does it not make any sense, we cannot improve the economy unless you improve the environment. It's just not sustainable by having it in the wrong order.
Shekhar Gupta: So Mr Bloomberg how important is it for big cities, now India by 2030 will have twice as many people living in its cities as America will have 600 million, how important is it for big cities to have empowered Mayors?
Michael Bloomberg: If Mayors are aware services are delivered and keep in mind I was a Mayor, so I'm a little bit biased...
Shekhar Gupta: You were a very empowered Mayor
Michael Bloomberg: New York City has a form of government where the position of a Mayor is very powerful and that's what made it a great challenge and a great opportunity. But I think the closer you get government down where people can see who's delivering the services and how well services are delivered the better. And more the public can demand the results and the other thing that is different is social media. I was talking to one of your Ministers this morning, where I pointed out that for the first time in the world a public can tell the government what they want and ask the government directly, that's never happened before.
Shekhar Gupta: I notice that you tweet
Michael Bloomberg: My staff does that for me but yes
Shekhar Gupta: You can't blame them
Michael Bloomberg: It's a very different world in running companies and in running governments all of a sudden. You don't have the luxury of when you get hired or elected. Well I don't have to face the stockholders or the voters for 'x' number of years. They say there's a referendum on everything you do, everyday online and how governments and corporate management can deal with that remains to be seen.
Shekhar Gupta: Same for us, editors and journalists
Michael Bloomberg: Yes sure
Shekhar Gupta: Every reader gets back at you directly in full public view
Michael Bloomberg: Right, you can make case over that and improve journalism, you can also take the case that it gives you an opportunity, you can also make the case that it gives you lot of competition.
Shekhar Gupta: Absolutely, empowered Mayor we have a debate going on. This city for example has its Chief Minister, elected Chief Minister, who is like the Mayor, but he doesn't have power over land, he or she, when she was there for fifteen years, does not have power to look over police, power of the police sit in North Block
Michael Bloomberg: Every country divides the power differently and I can only talk about what's right for America. You know the way I phrase it I can tell you how to raise your children, mine are more complex, it isn't so easy with mine.
Shekhar Gupta: I'm always happy to raise someone else's children
Michael Bloomberg: That's exactly right so I'm not here...
Shekhar Gupta: And fight with someone else's spouse
Michael Bloomberg: I'm not here to teach India, I'm here to learn
Shekhar Gupta: But can a Mayor, can the Head of a city function without powers of police, land, schools, colleges?
Michael Bloomberg: I think the answer is two-fold. Yes, but it's more difficult. It will be nice to have absolute power, but we are not going to go to dictatorships in our world, okay? Democracy is messy. Winston Churchill once said you can always depend on America to do the right thing after exhausting all other possibilities, okay? So it's harder, but I've never heard of an elected official running, saying it's too complex, I won't be able to do the job, elections coming anyways, you elect me I can do it. Okay, you should hold them responsible.
Shekhar Gupta: Did you have special challenges running the police or would you have been able to run New York without the police?
Michael Bloomberg: I don't know. You know we did not have a dictatorship. There's the City Council, there's the courts, there's public opinion. Somebody pointed out to me that in New York City if 90% of the people loved me that still meant that 840,000 people did not. So you know it's a challenge and I always thought greater the challenge, the greater the rewards if you can succeed. If it's easy it's like golf; if you can hit the ball into the hole every time nobody will play the game. It's a fact that it is difficult to do and the more difficult it is the more it attracts people who like challenges. And the marketplace, capitalism, the voters, public takes out those who can't do the job and those that do the job survive and sometime even those who do the job don't survive. Winston Churchill after leading England through World War II was thrown out in the next election.
Shekhar Gupta: Those things happen all the time in our country. But before I let you away let's talk American politics. Would you have been able to do the miracle you worked out in New York, had the capital of New York State been the city and not in Albany, far away Albany?
Michael Bloomberg: I think most Mayors will prefer, I can answer the question backwards, I think most Mayors will prefer that the state capitals are away from the big cities. And if you look at fifty states in America I think forty-eight of them have state capitals far away from the city. The state capital likes that and the cities like that.
Shekhar Gupta: There's a reason why I asked that, it's a loaded question in India because barring, Delhi all our big cities are the capitals of their states, in effect they become colonies of their states
Michael Bloomberg: You are not going to change that. Well the states have to devolve the power down to the Mayors; the public has to demand it and the Mayors have to put up with the fact that the Governor is round the corner and the Governor is going to be on television all the time. If the state capital is far away area the press doesn't go there and it's not on television, it's just a Mayor. If they're both next to each other they are going to be on an equal level.
Shekhar Gupta: You know what happens, a politician get votes from rural areas, then comes and governs a city and gets a sense of power.
Michael Bloomberg: Okay, but let me give you another thought. It is up to the public. No government exists without the will of the majority of the public and you see that in elections here and in America and elsewhere. And with the internet, social media, the public has more power than everybody thought and less excuse for not getting a good government. In the end we get the government that we deserve and the government we ask for. And so I would start by saying in the end it's the public that's responsible. I'm not suggesting it's easy, I'm not suggesting that every government that gets elected does the right thing, does the wrong thing, but it can't just say it's somebody else's problem.
Shekhar Gupta: In fact leaders have no place to hide, particularly city leaders, as you learnt by not trying to hide for twelve years doing such a wonderful job
Michael Bloomberg: Thank you, if you say so
Shekhar Gupta: Inspirational we really need to fix our cities for India to get anywhere
Michael Bloomberg: I'm very optimistic